a Surah the like thereof

AhmadJoya:

I still don't think you are seriously reading our arguments (Ron Webb and myself). If you have anything to help him counter my rebuttal of his text, please get serious, and show us your intellect...

Aren't red herrings haram in Islam ?
We're now reaching page 18 and I'm still waiting for your criteria.

Could it be that you choose this tone because you haven't got any ?


Airmano

@The Saint: No problem, I can wait...

Edited by airmano - 14 November 2015 at 5:06am

Ron Webb wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: Doesn�t matter if it is called miracle or not, that is not the point, although the faithful believers of Shakespeare might call it a miracle in their own sense. If that's not the point, then what is the point? I thought the inimitability of the Quran was supposed to be the proof that it is of divine origin. Isn't that what is meant by "the miracle of the Quran"?

Let me put in other words; for the majority of people, the claim of �inimitability� of Quran is still valid since no challenger could prove it otherwise. Hence, in this sense, yes this is a miracle. However, it doesn�t mean, this �majority� implies �all� the people. Of course there could be few who would not agree with this statement and would not believe in its truthfulness. However, there is no compulsion for anyone to believe it but only persuasion to use their own honest wisdom to find it. I guess, this is yet another unique feature of Quran that it urges its readers to apply �Wisdom/Logic/Mind� in the matter of religion rather than �Blind� faith, alone. Thus, those who are non-Muslims, it is understandable that they would not call it �miracle� until or unless they find it so by thoroughly going through it for the sake of seeking guidance. Then, if they find it, probably they would not remain non-Muslims anymore. However, for many others, as per their own experience with the Quran, they may reject the claim, and thus not believe in it.

Ron Webb wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: Similarly, when the Quran is compared with all the Arabic 'Shakespeare' of the world and till to date none is found even closer to Quran, only then Muslims may also allowed to call it a miracle. Again, if every single Arabic reader agreed with this, then you would have your miracle.

You don�t have to get fixated with the notion of ��if every single Arabic reader agreed�� to call Quran a miracle, simply because of my argument (with the example of pharaoh) that �Miracle� doesn�t imply 100% agreement. �Miracle� is not science, but beyond its current reach. However, I think, science at best, can disprove a claimed �Miracle�, but not prove it. So, in essence, you have now all the scientific tools available to disprove the challenge of Quran.

Ron Webb wrote: But there are millions of people who can read Arabic and are not persuaded by it.

True; however, their reasons of not getting �persuasion� from Quran could be of varying nature including their impression about Muslims through interaction/experience/media with the Muslims. Of course, for Islam, present day Muslims� own poor state of affairs, including their own apathy towards religion, bad conduct and character, and other human failings, is the biggest stumbling block. Shouldn�t you be asking, why this miracle is not working for the Muslims by themselves, before it is applied on others? My only answer is, as Quran says that there is no compulsion in religion. However, in my opinion, at the Day of Judgment, each and every human being has to be answerable to his own deeds and acts done in this life despite the wisdom given to them, where Muslims have more to explain than others.

Ron Webb wrote: Thus it reduces to a mere matter of opinion.

Yes, the opinion of majority of the Judges after examining all the facts/proofs presented to them.

Ron Webb wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: Your comparison is faulty simply because all Suras of Quran are essential part of the book. Therefore, when �O Prophet� is mentioned, until or unless specifically stated for some other Prophet, the reader finds no difficulty in understanding as who is he. This is not the same as your text. So you are comparing a single candidate surah with the entire Quran? what ever happened to comparing apples with apples?

Come on brother! First, no one stops you to bring your Text more voluminous than Quran. Second, it is more hard and difficult to remain consistent in larger text than in a smaller one.

Ron Webb wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: By the way, this is an open challenge. That means, its not time bound. So, you can always improve upon your text by removing such obvious contradictions and put up again for the challenge. May be I or any body else wouldn't be able to pick at least such obvious mistakes. Why don't you give it a try. First, let's establish the criteria for comparison.

I think, we have already seen at least one in which your text couldn�t qualify.

airmano wrote: AhmadJoya: I still don't think you are seriously reading our arguments (Ron Webb and myself). If you have anything to help him counter my rebuttal of his text, please get serious, and show us your intellect... Aren't red herrings haram in Islam ? We're now reaching page 18 and I'm still waiting for your criteria. Could it be that you choose this tone because you haven't got any ?

Kindly go through my responses to Mr Ron Webb, as we are exactly doing the same. Do you want me to duplicate all my responses for you as separate? Nevertheless, as I said, If you can show me the criteria for a persuasive writing style, you should be able to find your answer. But his passage went off the table simply because it was unable to qualify the pre-conditions of the challenge, i.e. self contradicting. Some more of these preconditions are, namely; non-conflicting, harmonious text, in Arabic.

Let me put in other words; for the majority of people, the claim of �inimitability� of Quran is still valid since no challenger could prove it otherwise.

No. You have to support the claim. Zero support with zero anything else is a result of "has no support".

All claims start off as presumed to be drivel untill they get backed up.