a Surah the like thereof |
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
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That is correct. However, subjective critical analysis of a literature is a complete science itself. The experts know it well. You just can�t ignore their expertize as merely opinionated and hence worthless. The opinion of a linguistic / literature expert, same as the expert of an art, is all that is required to judge between the two. Again, I think, you must consult your English 101 teacher. I must repeatedly say it now.
Yes, this also correct. But to assume all these books have same literary quality, is fallacy. Moreover, before these books are even brought on the table at par with Quran, their authenticity (as from the first human source reference) as well as their internal consistency, coherence, and without contradiction / conflict not only within the text but also with the known human history, is yet to be proven.
This is again not a correct view about �a miracle�. Remember, it is persuasion through conviction and not compulsion. Again, those who choose not to get convinced, are not compelled to be. Go back in the biblical miracles and tell us why Pharaoh or his royal army didn�t get convinced of Prophet Moses despite his miracle of splitting water to make passage? Similarly, for many other miracles even more subtle than these, where even the dead were brought to life. Of course, you may not believe them. But the point must be noted that the purpose of a miracle is not to compel but only to persuade. Some would and some may not.
Aren�t we talking about the par excellence of Quran Challenge? So, do you think, any inconsistency within or out of it, is not part of this Challenge? Why are you afraid of these rules of the challenge?
Now that your passage has been clearly shown to be self-inconsistent and conflicting, and therefore thrown out of the Challenge, you are most welcome to bring any specific example from Quran, if you are doubtful. However, for that, you have to follow the guidelines of the forum of choosing the right place of discussion board as per the topic heading. |
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
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Don't under estimate the 'subjective opinion' as useless. Not from me definitely, however, the opinion of linguists as well as of the literary experts to compare and judge between the two texts, would not be difficult to obtain, especially with today's internet technology. You may like to try your luck. Edited by AhmadJoyia - 11 November 2015 at 10:33pm |
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
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Well, I tend to agree with you about the first German reading the works of Allama might not have learnt the language for his work. But based on his work, many others must have got one more reason of motivation to learn the new language. Secondly, Allama Iqbal died about more than half a century back. His current popularity in Germany was never assumed in my post. Thirdly, I have given you a relative analysis (relative to his own home town), so even if you are correct about your statistics of Germany, through a simple logic, it may still not un-validate my statement. Isn�t it? Edited by AhmadJoyia - 12 November 2015 at 5:21am |
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airmano
Senior Member Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
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It is in any case irrelevant as long as there are no clear criteria given for this quranic challenge. We are now on page 16 of this discussion and the goal posts get moved all the time (not addressed to you but to "The Saint") So could you please ? .... Airmano Edited by airmano - 12 November 2015 at 11:38am |
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The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Tim the plumber
Senior Member Male Joined: 30 September 2014 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 944 |
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The the Koran is certainly the best thing ever written in old Arabic. No contest at all. Very little else was ever written in old Arabic and nothing posh. That would have been like writing the Queen's speach in scouse (Liverpool accent). |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Critical analysis is a legitimate field of study, but it is not a science. I'm quite sure my high school English teachers would agree with that. In class we were encouraged to form our own opinions about literature. As long as we could justify our position, we didn't have to agree with the teacher or with anyone else. Science, by contrast, is above all things objective. If a Hindu scientist and a Muslim scientist routinely reach different conclusions from the same facts, then at least one of them is not doing science. Not that speculation is necessarily a bad thing, but it's not science.
I thought the whole point of the challenge was to establish the authenticity of the Quran. If we have to establish authenticity beforehand, then why even bother with the challenge?
We're not talking about whether or not the miracle is persuasive. We're talking about whether or not it is a miracle. Persuasion is not per se a miracle. Or (again, not to get lost in semantics) if it is, then a great many texts are "miracles".
What rules? Please tell me the rules, and where you found them.
In what way is it inconsistent or conflicting? When was this shown?
If your claim is that any challenge text must be like the Quran in self-consistency, then surely an examination of the Quran's consistency would be part of that comparison. Not that I want to go there at this time. I am satisfied that my example is self-consistent. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
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My response must be seen in the context when the comparison of Quran with other religious books is somehow is alluded to; which of course is not the topic under discussion.
Not to duplicate, it has been clearly shown that your passage is addressing two personalities. By giving them divine assignment, it clearly implied both are Prophets with the specified mission. However, later in the passage, only singular 'Prophet' is being addressed. Hence, this is self conflicting as well as ambiguous to the reader as who this 'Prophet' is? 'Mohammad' or 'Ali'? If you don't agree, of course you wouldn't, then I can only humbly agree to disagree with you and let all other readers to make their own opinion about our discussion. After all, my aim was never to convert you, but only to let you know what my opinion is about the topic. Best regards. Edited by AhmadJoyia - 12 November 2015 at 7:05pm |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Nonsense. Even if the entire class loves Shakespeare, that doesn't mean I have to love Shakespeare. Even if they find his soliloquies moving and persuasive, that doesn't mean I have to find them so.
It is exactly the topic under discussion. Christians would certainly see the Bible as "the like thereof" (actually, the superior thereof) to the Quran in authority, and in persuasive and inspirational power. They regard it as authentic even if the exact origins are lost in history, and they would say that having multiple authors all corroborating each other is vastly superior to relying on a single source. And frankly I would agree with them, although my opinion on the matter is worth no more than theirs, or yours.
It gave them divine assignment, but it didn't say anything about them being prophets. You think it implied that because apparently you cannot imagine any other kind of divine assignment. That is not the fault of the text. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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