The Original Sin

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Caringheart View Drop Down

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Posted: 07 February 2016 at 12:20pm

The Saint wrote:

Caringheart wrote:

- Died and rose from the dead 3 days later, just as He prophesied to do.
'destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up again' (the Word of Yshwe to the Pharisees)

Actually, he never died.

Greetings The Saint,
You dispute with the testimony of a great many witnesses... Romans, and others living in Jerusalem, who were witness to His death. The Roman soldiers that saw him laid to rest in a tomb and were told to guard it. Were these Roman guards told to stand guard over the tomb for nothing?

The Saint wrote:

Caringheart wrote:

- Performed miracles. Who can perform miracles except with the power of God?

Exactly. By the power of God. Not by himself. He is known to have said, 'by myself I can do nothing'.

This should indeed confirm for you that the 3 are One. Yshwe by Himself alone would not have the full power of God... could not do the things which He was given to do on earth.

The Saint wrote:

Caringheart wrote:

- Forgave sins. Who can forgive sins, except God Himself? Why did Yshwe make a point of saying, "your sins are forgiven", and not "you are healed"?

Please give a reference from the Bible?

From the book of Luke, chapter 5

¹⁸And, behold, men brought in a bed a man which was taken with a palsy: and they sought means to bring him in, and to lay him before him.

¹⁹And when they could not find by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with his couch into the midst before Jesus.

²⁰And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

²⁴But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

²⁵And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.

From the book of Luke, chapter 7

⁴¹There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

⁴²And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

⁴³Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

⁴⁴And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

⁴⁵Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

⁴⁶My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

⁴⁷Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

⁴⁸And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

⁴⁹And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

⁵⁰And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

asalaam and may God bless us all with His blessing,

Caringheart

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

airmano

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Posted: 07 February 2016 at 7:20am

Ahmad: It [The Quran] was first compiled in the book form during the reign of 1st Caliph Hazrat Abu Bakr.

Airmano: That's not what I understood. I thought it was Uthman. What makes you say so ?

Ahmad: You might want to consult the link I shared... http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php

Ahmad: Oh, my fault if I missed your reference, however, this particular is about long page of more than eighty ahadith. Bro Airmano, pl do help me if you find any specific hadith which supports your allegation. Till now, I don't find it, I am so lazy.......

Airmano: So your link (see above) you open, to 507 and 510 you go and what I stated you'll find.

Ahmad: Good! But how could you miss 509?

Playing Games ? Pretending that you are lazy upon my question "That's not what I understood. I thought it was Uthman [and not Abu Bakr to compile the Quran] ?",
just to come back one post later with your reference to 509 ?

Well, be it so. Let's have a look at the Hadith 509 which you quote and 510 which I took to support my thought.

Extracted from 509:
Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You [Zaid bin Thabit] are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book). Followed by: Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar..
These sentences do indeed support your claim, but you were "too lazy" to give them to me at the time.

OK, let's compare these sentences with "my claim" from 510:
.... Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies.
it finishes with:
'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

So the following questions arise: Why did Uthman ask Zaid to compile the Quran (again) ? Was the book that was supposed to be "protected by God" (and possessed by Abu Bakr) simply lost ?

Take this sentence from 510:
"so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran)".
Expressing a sentence like this, makes it clear that serious "corruption" was likely to be on its way,

further supported by the sentence:

"...and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt".

This means that "corruption" had already happened and the only way out, was to canonize [a version of] the Quran (and to burn the others).

Modern peer reviewed science thinks along along these lines as well, read i.e. the sentence:
Donner interprets Small's work as showing "that there was a very early attempt to establish a uniform consonantal text of the Qurʾān from what was probably a wider and more varied group of related texts in early transmission. [...] After the creation of this standardized canonical text, earlier authoritative texts were suppressed [!!!], and all extant manuscripts�despite their numerous variants�seem to date to a time after this standard consonantal text was established.".

Tough, isn't it ?

And no, Smith is not the only one thinking along these lines.

Looking at the internationally respected researcher Gerd Puin who analyzed the Sanaa scriptures we find in the above Wiki entry about Puin the interesting sentence:

My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants.

So obviously it is not only my idea.
So, accusing the Christians of "Corrupting the bible" is kind of a joke, that makes me cite Freud: What we criticize the most on others is likely to be our own problem.

To summarize: Nowadays there is indeed a standardized version of the Quran, but "corruption" has taken place [long time] before, just as the bible.

Your turn, Airmano

Edited by airmano - 07 February 2016 at 8:06am

The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")

The Saint

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Posted: 06 February 2016 at 7:23am

Greetings The Saint,
I answered that question on Jan. 19th, page 40. Smile

I looked at page 40 but couldn't find it. Can you kindly repeat it here. Thanks.

- Born of a virgin. Why?

God Almighty showing how else can a man be created.

- Died and rose from the dead 3 days later, just as He prophesied to do.
'destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up again' (the Word of Yshwe to the Pharisees)

Actually, he never died.

- Performed miracles. Who can perform miracles except with the power of God?

Exactly. By the power of God. Not by himself. He is known to have said, 'by myself I can do nothing'.

- Forgave sins. Who can forgive sins, except God Himself? Why did Yshwe make a point of saying, "your sins are forgiven", and not "you are healed"?

Please give a reference from the Bible?

More soon.

Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

BaruchHaba View Drop Down

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Posted: 06 February 2016 at 7:22am

This thread has wandered from its original topic of original sin. Without going thru 45 pages of comments, can someone state/restate the Muslim position on original sin? Do the Sunni and Shia share the same belief on the matter?

The Saint

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Posted: 06 February 2016 at 5:54am

So much for "declaring the greatness only of your Lord"! Do you still support Nouman Ali Khan's translation of Quran verse 74:3?

You couldn't be serious!? There are at least twenty five prophets mentioned in the Quran. And they are mentioned as prophets.

Let me ask you do you still get confused between God Almighty and Prophets?

Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

AhmadJoyia View Drop Down

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Posted: 05 February 2016 at 9:54am

airmano wrote:

Ahmad:
It [The Quran] was first compiled in the book form during the reign of 1st Caliph Hazrat Abu Bakr.

Airmano:
That's not what I understood. I thought it was Uthman. What makes you say so ?

Ahmad:
Greetings Airmano,You might want to consult the link I shared... http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php

Ahmad:
Oh, my fault if I missed your reference, however, this particular is about long page of more than eighty ahadith. Bro Airmano, pl do help me if you find any specific hadith which supports your allegation. Till now, I don't find it, I am so lazy.......

I am so lazy...?? Sure checking references is work.

So your link (see above) you open, to 507 and 510 you go and what I stated you'll find.
Que la force soit avec toi: Airmano

Good! But how could you miss 509?

Caringheart View Drop Down

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Posted: 03 February 2016 at 2:09pm

The Saint wrote:

Caringheart wrote:

The Word of Yshwe Himself (recorded in the book of Matthew, chapter 28)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Hello CH
I am very happy you cited this verse to prove trinity. But....

This verse cannot be used to prove that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one for the following reasons: -

3. None of the Apostles of the New Testament ever baptized in the name of the Trinity; rather, they baptized only in the name of Jesus Christ

This proves that none of the Apostles knew or ever heard of the triune formula.

Greetings The Saint,

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said to me, On whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizes with the Holy Ghost.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

[A question re-surfaces for me once again, this morning.
Why is it that muslims are so intent and spend so much time seeking ways to speak against the Christian scriptures, and so very little in studying the qur'an? Why do so few seem able to share what is from the qur'an?
How much do they study their qur'an to see what there is in it?]

So I am understanding that the scripture of Matthew 28:19 expounded, or embellished, the words of Yshwe,
but there is no denying that Yshwe always spoke of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that He always spoke of these 3 in connection with Himself, and with God the Father.
It seems to me that whoever was writing down the book of Matthew merely sought to bring all elements together and make it more clear.

I offer this...
when John baptized Yshwe, who did he baptize in the name of? It must have been in the name of the Father (YHWH)
and when Yshwe was baptized the witness was of the Holy Spirit descending upon Him... and from where did the Holy Spirit come but from the Father to the Son? These 3 are One.
I know it is a thing hard for some to understand, but having read the book of Job I understand that it is not ours to understand all there is to understand about the Creator. It is a thing supernatural to us. Some things are out of our reach and simply must be accepted based on what we have been told from the scripture writings of the witnesses.

The Saint wrote:

You may see, for instance, Acts 2:38; 10:48; 8:5, 12, 16; 19:3, 5; Galatians 3:27; 1 Corinthians 1:13, 15; Romans 6:3.

May I suggest to read Acts 8:5 all the way through to Acts 8:17.

5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.

9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of Elohim.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of YHWH, and the name of Yshwe Messiah, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Baptism involved these 3.

and read not just Acts 19:3 and 5, but read all of Acts 19 from 1 to 6.
Baptism in the name of Yshwe brings with it the Holy Spirit.

asalaam and blessings,
CAringheart

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

airmano

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Points: 884

Posted: 03 February 2016 at 8:23am

Ahmad:
It [The Quran] was first compiled in the book form during the reign of 1st Caliph Hazrat Abu Bakr.

Airmano:
That's not what I understood. I thought it was Uthman. What makes you say so ?

Ahmad:
Greetings Airmano,You might want to consult the link I shared... http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php

Ahmad:
Oh, my fault if I missed your reference, however, this particular is about long page of more than eighty ahadith. Bro Airmano, pl do help me if you find any specific hadith which supports your allegation. Till now, I don't find it, I am so lazy.......

I am so lazy...?? Sure checking references is work.

So your link (see above) you open, to 507 and 510 you go and what I stated you'll find.

Que la force soit avec toi:
Airmano

Edited by airmano - 03 February 2016 at 8:26am

The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")