More on Hijab (from old forum)

"Take away love and our earth is a tomb".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~
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Sorry for taking so long, was working and researching :-)


MORE ON HIJAB � PART 2 ;-)

Since this is going to be a big post, nausheen I have put your postings in these brackets, doubled {}, ok? :-)
I have covered a fair bit and picked pieces out to discuss and hopefully it flows in somewhat ordered fashion.
I haven't covered a few verses that will take more time maybe at another time right now I don't feel like it, all this has taken a fair bit of time and I can't write quick, this bit took 2/3 days to write up :-)
let's begin :-)

{{Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin: When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads. Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 32, Number 4090.
and
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Safiyyah, daughter of Shaybah, said that Aisha mentioned the women of Ansar, praised them and said good words about them. She then said: When Surat an-Nur came down, they took the curtains, tore them and made head covers (veils) of them. Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 32, Number 4089.}}

But this refers to the women of ansar, who are apparently women of Medina and not for ALL women otherwise it would / should be mention in another way.

{{and:
Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) brought Fatimah a slave which he donated to her. Fatimah wore a garment which, when she covered her head, did not reach her feet, and when she covered her feet by it, that garment did not reach her head. When the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) saw her struggle, he said: There is no harm to you: Here is only your father and slave. Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 32, Number 4094.}}

Is this below, not the full explanation of the above 3 parts?
And they are hadiths not commands from God.

"How praise-worthy are the women of Ansar that their modesty does not prevent them from attempts at learning and the acquisition of knowledge." Yet at another occasion, she said: " May Allah have mercy on the women of Ansar! When the Qur'anic verse relating to the wearing of jilbab (a long and loose gown which covers a woman's body from neck to feet) was revealed to the Prophet (saw), they tore off their big sheets of cloth and covered themselves with their torn parts and in this state offered their prayers behind the Prophet (saw) as silently as if crows were seated on their heads." http://members.aol.com/khananis/women.htm

�(Ayeshah praised the women of Ansar for their spirit of enquiry and learning, saying, 'How praiseworthy are the women of Ansar that their modesty does not prevent them from attempts at learning and the acquisition of knowledge.' (Sahih Muslim Kitab al Tahrat))� http://www.agnatemoslem.com/data/hadiths/had5/had50.html


It�s obviously the long gown which happen to cover the neck to the feet (no mention of headcovering) was the cloth (not curtain) that they tore up and covered their heads in, to pray in.

It seems that the modesty of the women of ansar was not a problem and could go about even learning for which they were praised for while in their own modesty and when the qur�an verse for jilbab, the long loose gown from neck to the feet was revealed later, then they took up the jilbab made from the torn sheets and here it gets a bit scratchy for me, if the jilbab is a gown from the neck to the feet, this doesn�t mean covering the head. So it doesn�t go with �as silently as if crows were seated on their heads� nor the way its also versed �came out as if they had crows over their heads� (whatever exactly that means :-|) and if they did have a head covering then it was for the state of prayer that is mentioned, it speaks of nothing else.

{{The following excerpt is taken from this article.

Allah the Exalted says in Surat an-Noor, ayah 31:
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their veils over their (necks and) bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no knowledge of women's private parts. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn you all to Allah in repentance, O believers, that you may be successful.}}

It�s pointed out that words in brackets in any qur�an verses is an addition to the qur�an and if there should be any explanation, then as a footnote underneath it.

Here�s the other version I seem more in favour:

"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this dress in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, the male servant or other employee whose sexual drive has been nullified or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake or reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to God, O you believers, that you may succeed" [24:31].

It seems that btw versions the words � chastity, modesty & private parts get put in place at the end of the first sentence. It�s confusing at times.
I�ve come to learn that private parts in Arabic is awaat which is the word used in the qur�an and in the verse 24:31 it means puberty to which one becomes aware sexually physically of the opposite gender and of oneself.
As for chastity that for me, would be guarding ones body from sex before marriage (if that is what you believe in).
And for modesty, well modesty means differently to different people about how one dress�s and then again here for me its also for how one conducts their affairs whatever they maybe.

To me if you going to have an English translation, then its got to be one or the other of the three, not all since they have different meanings.

The second sentence of the verse 24:31 �they shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary�. What is necessary?
Depending on the (women�s) situation and through choice figuring out what is necessary or apparent for them is their choice really. In modesty, modesty means differently in different regions, for surely God knew this ? and left it up to each woman to decide for herself upon her situation & community she lives in.
�Modesty for a woman who lives in New York may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Cairo Egypt. Modesty of a woman who lives in Cairo, Egypt may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia. Modesty of a woman who lives in Jidda in Saudi Arabia may not be accepted by a woman who lives in a desert oasis in the same country�. http://www.submission.org/dress.html (extensive description on dress)

And as long as they follow being righteous in religion for it�s the first and foremost command in Islam, while wearing what is acceptable, then a woman will choose accordingly in how she presents herself dress wise because one who covers, uses hijab, may not be (or are not) righteous and still be seductive towards the opposite gender.
The best garment is the garment of righteousness, is not ?
And also what is in your heart and your intentions most of all counts ?
Just because one is covered up and its been mentioned before doesn�t denote being good nor protects you from harm.
I�m sure God would have known this.

Where in the verse it says head covering?
For the section they shall cover their bosoms �juyoob� (or chest �gayb� in some versions), while looking at the Arabic translation there seems to be no word for head �raas� or for hair �shaar� in the verse and if the juyoob also refers to the neck, still were does the head / hair come into it?
In this link, it further explains:� In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget. God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair�. http://www.muslimtents.com/aminahsworld/Dresscode.html

To me it seems as that many wore head covering �hijab� and or face veil �niqab� or burka depending on their situation and where they lived and having a choice to wear / donne these clothing items not through order / command But local customs.

Islamic history shows that not ALL women covered, wore head coverings, only certain groups did and that in the late Safavid dynasty changes to customs were made but not in the beginning nor from the Prophet. Some women today want to go back to what was original practiced and I mentioned this in my original post.
So why do some women cry out who feel and know they are oppressed, wanting to remove the hijab? If its ordered in the qur�an then they should be happy to wear but they are not.
It wouldn�t be because not all women wore the head covering in islam especially considering the two description I provided in my original post:
##That only the wives of the Prophet covered their faces for other men not to see them in sexual terms but not extended to other women, since the wives were married to the Prophet.
From this I can see where covering would come from especially when followers follow the way and illuminate them but not as duty or order.
For the Prophets wives only to veil goes in accordance with a point in Karen Armstrong�s book � A history of God which states that:
�the religion was later hijacked by the men, who interpreted texts in a way that was negative for Muslim women. The Koran does not prescribe the veil for all women but only for Muhammad�s wives, as a mark of their status. Once Islam had taken its place in the civilized world, however, muslims adopted those customs of the Oikumene which relegated women to second class status. They adopted the customs of veiling women and secluding them in harems from Persia and Christian Byzantium, where women had long been marginalized in this way. By the time of the Abbasid caliphate (750 � 1258), the position of Muslim women was as bad as that of their sisters in Jewish and Christian society. Today Muslim feminists urge their menfolk to return to the original spirit of the Koran� ##

And some more points in not covering:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 22 Narrated Anas: The Prophet stayed for three days between Khaibar and Medina, and there he consummated his marriage to Safiyya bint Huyai. I invited the Muslims to the wedding banquet in which neither meat nor bread was offered. He ordered for leather dining-sheets to be spread, and dates, dried yoghurt and butter were laid on it, and that was the Prophet's wedding banquet. The Muslims wondered, "Is she (Saffiyya) considered as his wife or his slave girl?" Then they said, "If he orders her to veil herself, she will be one of the mothers of the Believers; but if he does not order her to veil herself, she will be a slave girl. So when the Prophet proceeded from there, he spared her a space behind him (on his she-camel) and put a screening veil between her and the people.

and

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 523 Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet stayed with Safiya bint Huyai for three days on the way of Khaibar where he consummated his marriage with her. Safiya was amongst those who were ordered to use a veil.

Before I get to the last 4th evidence, these 2 hadiths above.
Why are the Mothers of the believers excluded from others to veil ?
It seems to be to distinguish the Prophets wives who have a different status from other women most notably slaves, and here I can see why that other women (not slaves) would wear veiling along with the guard yourself. Why would you want to be seen as a slave?
But there begs a question What about the slaves who were believers themselves? I�m sure there were muslims slaves also in those times.

And this 4th piece which I assume is an hadith but is a bit contradictory to the ones above since this one below speaks of Aisha not wearing a veil out of choice and wishing to show her beauty but it does demonstrate that veiling is not necessary and not a command of God.
When the son of a prominent companion of the Prophet asked his wife Aisha bint Talha to veil her face, she answered, "Since the Almighty hath put on me the stamp of beauty, it is my wish that the public should view the beauty and thereby recognized His grace unto them. On no account, therefore, will I veil myself." http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/essay-01.html (this is a good read)


Further references:
http://www.submission.org/women/hijab.html



In a society in Africa, the tribe � Tuareg, who are muslim, the men wear hijab which is called: �the tagelmoust, which covers the top of the head, the nose and the mouth, typically revealing only a pair of dark eyes. The tagelmoust serves both as a practical necessity in the heat and dust of the desert and a means of showing respect for strangers. The Tuareg are said to consider it rude for a man to show his mouth in public. The same is not true for women. Indeed, the Tuareg are the only Islamic people who encourage men, rather than women, to cover their faces.� http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,164-654269,00.html


How can not wearing a head covering not be tribal / customs but just a command in the qur�an? It would go against the qur�an verse 49:13:
�O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Omniscient, Cognizant�


More on the Tureg:
http://www.ksafe.com/profiles/p_code/36.html



Ali the 4th Caliph says �the conditions laid down by God take precedence over the conditions set by man�

Does this not also apply to Muhammad who was a mere man even though he was choosen to show God�s words ?



Angel

Peace,

Although I try not to praise others while they are actually present, sometimes I do get carried away.

Angel's last post in this thread was an extraordinary effort from a non-Muslim trying to question/understand certain Islamic views held by majority of Muslims....something quite similar to what I would have written 3-4 years ago :)

Nausheen's reply is the best I have read in this area. In some ways it was also educational for myself. It has also motivated me to undertake an initiative in increasing personal understanding with a broader vision.....God willing.

So when one is to research how the commands were followed, we will look into the PEOPLE who followed them, and here in this very case the ppl who were the first to follow, after the family of the prophet were the ansar women.......
In order to study the Quran in the command to cover, we are supposed to look at how the command was carried out by muslims who were the first recipients of those commands.
The hadith is a proof, that the verses were understood by the people correctly. Because if they had been wrong, the messenger was there to look into their mistakes and correct them........
Nobody can understand the quran just by reading it alone. This is given in the quran as well, where it says, 'take what the messenger gives you and leave what he forbids'. The hadith which are given to you EXPLAIN the verses, THEY DO NOT STAND INDEPENDENT OF THE QURAN......
The hadith is a proof, of how that command was understood. Since the hadith was LIVED IN THE TIME OF THE MESSENGER, the way women understood the command of the quran, is to be regarded in an ADDITIVE manner.....

I think the above (in italics) from her post explains well the difference in approach in understanding GOD's commandments between Muslims and people of other faiths. We are traditionalists, and continually endeavour to take the understanding of those whose understanding was approved by the person through whom came the divine message. We appreciate that understanding of Signs of GOD (e.g. Al-Quran) depends upon the ability to understand. And the ability to understand is a gift from GOD. Since that gift does not come announced, it is only in the hereafter one may discover how much or little one had been gifted.
Thus, just as we keep praying and seeking for that gift while trying to understand HIS signs, we keep a check on ourselves by being traditionalists. However, since traditions come from different sources and methodologies, we take caution while giving them a level of evidence/certainty. The equation that eventually determines our understanding is made up of our prayer/ability to seek, our individual understanding of the Scripture(s), the transmitted 'narratives' of the explanations of the Messenger of GOD/Prophet (pbuh) and 'approved' understanding/actions of the earliest Muslims. These are the variables in the equation, in which the constant is only the Scripture itself. Some of our views/actions fall outside this equation but believed to be most certainly Divinely ordained whether or not scriptural. These have been practiced (and therefore practically transmitted) regularly without a break by the community of Muslims at least since the time of Mohammed (pbuh) if not earlier--- for example, prayer, circumcision, fasting, Zakat, Haj etc.

Hi back at chya :-)

On 2/4/2004 3:57:00 AM, Angel wrote:
>Hi nausheen & Pathseeker :-)

Hi Angel,

Congratulations to you for coming to a closure on this thread :)

Just a very few things I want to respond to in this post.

>And also depending upon where
>your understanding is. I know
>when you read something at one
>point in time and it has an
>understanding for you and then
>at another time reading the
>same thing it will have a
>different understanding or
>meaning for you depends where
>you are in life, I think this
>is something like this when
>reading verses, I don�t know,
>it seems similar. :-)

This is indeed very true Angel. And may be sometime in future you will have a better understanding of what had been presented to you now :)

>I thought juyoob is the Arabic
>word for bossom And gayb for
>chest, which I believe is
>sometimes used and also the
>word awaat which means puberty
>in the verse 24:31 if you
>happen to use it, otherwise
>its use means private parts.
>Not sure on awrah, where is
>does that come into it ?

:)
Here is the transliteration of verse 24:31, and I underline for you all the words that have been highlighted either by us or you.

. Waqul lilmu/minati yaghdudna min absarihinna wayahfathna furoojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa ma thahara minha walyadribna bikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa libuAAoolatihinna aw aba-ihinna aw aba-i buAAoolatihinna aw abna-ihinna aw abna-i buAAoolatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw banee ikhwanihinna aw banee akhawatihinna aw nisa-ihinna aw ma malakat aymanuhunna awi alttabiAAeena ghayri olee al-irbati mina alrrijali awi alttifli allatheena lam yathharoo AAala AAawrati alnnisa-i wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna liyuAAlama ma yukhfeena min zeenatihinna watooboo ila Allahi jameeAAan ayyuha almu/minoona laAAallakum tuflihoona

You are right about Juyoob, but not about awrah, which appears as 'awrati alnnisa-i'. I think it is this which you think shld be appropriately translated as puberty.

Well i would say puberty is just one aspect of awrah ... but the word includes a lot more. Even a woman's voice is her awrah. The way she would carry herself is her awrah. ... and well ask a native arab, he/she may explain it a lot better than myself. Only i know this far is because I researched the command to veil a lot before I started to observe it myself.
But it is very true, what you said about a person's perspective in understanding a certain matter.

>p.s: you don�t need to repeat
>yourself that we are not well
>versed in arabic ;-))

Hope i did not repeat myself this time. ;)

>A great big thanks to you
>Pathseeker and Nausheen, you
>both have given me a lot
>there, I get it despite
>remaining mix ;-) � I�m sure
>you got frustrated with me at
>times nausheen ;-))

There is nothing to thank about, Angel. If u thank me, i thank you with equal sincerity, as u gave me a fair chance to present my religion to you :)
I was not fristrated with you this time.(and there have been so many other times where I have not felt frustrated (?)) Either I have grown in understanding with you, or you have improved, or both :) Anyways it was good I suppose.
On a side note, did i seem frustrated at any point ... am asking because i really did not feel this way :)

>[p.s: Although no ones talked
>about Mulla Sadr and his
>confession. ]

oops! who is he ... the iranian guy? Sorry, may be someother time :P

Peace,
Nausheen