More on Hijab (from old forum)

Angel,

Thanks for taking the time to pull this forward for the benefit of all.  May Allah increase all of us in understanding the guidance He sent down to us.

Peace, ummziba.

On 2/6/2004 4:50:00 AM, NAUSHEEN wrote:
>:)
>Here is the transliteration of verse
>24:31, and I underline for you all the
>words that have been highlighted either
>by us or you.

Thanks :-)

>You are right about Juyoob, but not
>about awrah, which appears as
>'awrati alnnisa-i'. I think it is this which
>you think shld be appropriately
>translated as puberty.

Maybe, perhaps you should check out the link some time that I gave that explains.

>Well i would say puberty is just one
>aspect of awrah ... but the word
>includes a lot more. Even a woman's
>voice is her awrah. The way she would
>carry herself is her awrah.

ok, gives me more insight :-).

> ... and
>well ask a native arab, he/she may
>explain it a lot better than myself.

Ok
I'll ask Deist sometime ;-))

>Hope i did not repeat myself this time. ;)

Na :-))

>On a side note, did i seem frustrated at
>any point ... am asking because i really
>did not feel this way :)

No not that I notice really.

>>[p.s: Although no ones talked
>>about Mulla Sadr and his
>>confession. ]
>oops! who is he ... the iranian guy? Sorry, may be someother time :P

Perhaps another time, lol!


Angel.

"Take away love and our earth is a tomb".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------

Hi nausheen & Pathseeker :-)

Pathseeker you�re in brackets [[]] and Nausheen you�re in italics.

I want to get something cleared up first:

{And why was Umar spying on the Prophet?s wives answering the call of nature ;-))}

[[Firstly, and ignoring the provocative language you have used, what on earth gave you this idea that Umar (ra) was spying on Prophets wives?????? ]]

I think you got carried away when you phrased this question so carelessly ;) Angel, here u are talking about one of the best followers of Prophet (SAW) He is one of the four Khulfa rashidun �.. the righteous chalifs. Pls take care of the feelings of the host community when you refer to these personalities. Thank you.

First of all what gave me the idea is the verse itself ;-) and second I don�t how the question is provocative according to you Pathseeker, that�s not provocative. If you mean the words call of nature, it is used in the verse and if it�s the word spying, well that is what it seemed to me for the fact that Umar was anxious to have the verses for al-hijab, he went out to prove it somehow to get them revealed. That is the way it seemed to me and I mean no disrespect to anyone, no one shouldn�t be taking it otherwise. Some things for me cannot be put in any other way again, No offense is meant.

[[Angel.....you turned it all around..............I am disappointed!!!!!!!! ]]

I am sorry, I do not understand, What have I turned around ?, all I did was add a verse to the subject which is still on topic of covering and questioning it like everything else I do
;-)).
Don�t know what you�re disappointed for ?

You have a very bad habit of confining people :-| ;)
Use colors, they stand out more prominantly :) But its your choice, this is also fine by me.

Sorry :-)
Colors are good, I�ll just confine people to colors now :-P lol!

So may I know if you have understood the command as revealed in the Quran.

Yes, sorta I can�t help but feel that its part of culture and living conditions of living in the desert also somewhere there but anyway through all this it is clear from you and Pathseeker with all the information you brought in explaining and the methodology of the use of the books and some verses and that since the quran was revealed it has been an order to veil but still remains mix for me with this understanding.
And that there are many explanations of the verses both qur�an & hadiths that need some sifting through ;-) and Pathseeker throw a spanner in the works there why don�t ya, lol! The other version of the verse about umar, is pretty much what I know except those words you underlined � what does one do to believe which is which is right :-|
And also depending upon where your understanding is. I know when you read something at one point in time and it has an understanding for you and then at another time reading the same thing it will have a different understanding or meaning for you depends where you are in life, I think this is something like this when reading verses, I don�t know, it seems similar. :-)

I thought juyoob is the Arabic word for bossom And gayb for chest, which I believe is sometimes used and also the word awaat which means puberty in the verse 24:31 if you happen to use it, otherwise its use means private parts.
Not sure on awrah, where is does that come into it ?
p.s: you don�t need to repeat yourself that we are not well versed in arabic ;-))

u have improved a lot more in your writing skills :)
Thanks :-)


At the moment I have come to an end in this little research of mine and pretty much don�t have anything to give/question or any more understanding/explanations that are needed, right now.
It�s been good to sink my teeth into something :-)) and even though I�m not going to be muslim I have come away with more understanding, well mostly your understanding ;-) of what is and even though I made this thread mostly for myself here, but I think its good for everyone else to get a deeper perspective, perhaps I delved into areas/question things that perhaps may not get questioned by some people.

A great big thanks to you Pathseeker and Nausheen, you both have given me a lot there, I get it despite remaining mix ;-) � I�m sure you got frustrated with me at times nausheen ;-))


Peace
Angel
[p.s: Although no ones talked about Mulla Sadr and his confession. ] 

"Take away love and our earth is a tomb".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------

Hi back at chya :-)

Nausheen you are in triple brackets {}
{{{If am not mistaken, u want to ask if the command from God to cover is there in the Quran or not, right? }}}

Yes, mostly the hijab � the headcovering not the face veil, I know the face veil is an option as well as the burka to which both of these are ordered in some parts of the Islamic region and also for the woman who chooses for more piety to which I see this no different for the hijab.
{{{The prophetic tafsir (explanation of Quran) of the quran are most trustworthy of all other hadith.}}}
Sounds like there many other hadiths, so which one is the one that is of the Prophet�s?

{{{So when one is to research how the commands were followed, we will look into the PEOPLE who followed them, and here in this very case the ppl who were the first to follow, after the family of the prophet were the ansar women.}}}

Gee what happened to the men ? ;-)))
So basically you�re saying that because these women (both the Prophet�s wives and the women of Ansar) were the first, they ought to be trusted in their views about the commands.

{{{THIRDLY, they prayed behind the prophet with their heads covered, explains they 'CAME OUT OF THEIR HOUSES WITH THEIR HEADS COVERED' as there is nothing that would otherwiese state that they covered ONLY at the time of the prayer, but later removed their head covers.}}}

That�s not how I understood it, for me it was that their heads were covered and this state offered prayers (at the time of prayer) behind the Prophet.
You never did say anything about this, Is this below, not the full explanation of the above 3 parts actually make it the 2 parts?

"How praise-worthy are the women of Ansar that their modesty does not prevent them from attempts at learning and the acquisition of knowledge." Yet at another occasion, she said: " May Allah have mercy on the women of Ansar! When the Qur'anic verse relating to the wearing of jilbab (a long and loose gown which covers a woman's body from neck to feet) was revealed to the Prophet (saw), they tore off their big sheets of cloth and covered themselves with their torn parts and in this state offered their prayers behind the Prophet (saw) as silently as if crows were seated on their heads." http://members.aol.com/khananis/women.htm

�(Ayeshah praised the women of Ansar for their spirit of enquiry and learning, saying, 'How praiseworthy are the women of Ansar that their modesty does not prevent them from attempts at learning and the acquisition of knowledge.' (Sahih Muslim Kitab al Tahrat))� http://www.agnatemoslem.com/data/hadiths/had5/had50.html

The way I understood it and as well as the parts you gave first, is that the women of ansar were already modest before the covering, before the command and for attempting to learn were praised for learning and then later when the verse came the women covered and then further praised for covering which they adorned the jilbab the gown from neck to feet and with torn sheets covered their heads and so while in this state of prayers behind the Prophet.
Have I missed something ?

As for looking like crows, still at a lose :-|, lol!
But there seems to be a difference to what you say: they came out as if they had crows over their head, to: offered their prayers behind the Prophet as silently as if crows were seated on their heads.

{{{And does righteousness not lie in moulding of ones life according to the guidance of the prophets (SAW)?}}}

I can�t exactly answer here, its not belief to mould to someone else even if I do follow some examples of others ;-) But for you I guess the answer is Yes ;-)


Where in the verse it says head covering? For the section they shall cover their bosoms �juyoob (or chest �gayb in some versions), while looking at the Arabic translation there seems to be no word for head �raas or for hair �shaar in the verse and if the juyoob also refers to the neck, still were does the head / hair come into it?
{{{Again this was explained fairly well, in one of the posts above by pathseeker �.. with the HELP of the hadith. The women would wear their khimar in such a way that it used to fall behind their shoulders (from the head) as khimar is a long scarf worn on the head. This verse is telling the women WHO WEAR THEIR KHIMAR FROM THE HEAD, LETTING IT FALL ON THE BACK, to take its edges, and cover their bosoms with it. (funny but Fezziwig thought the bosoms were nude, so the women were being asked to cover 'em, and now u think the head was not covered, and there is no mention of covering it �. Ur misunderstandings further explain how reading the quran is AIDED by a sketch of those times as contained in the hadith literature:))
The hadith EXPLAINS the verse in the QURAN, that was revealed to outline the dress code for women. The hadith is not a command. The hadith is a proof, of how that command was understood. Since the hadith was LIVED IN THE TIME OF THE MESSENGER, the way women understood the command of the quran, is to be regarded in an ADDITIVE manner. Not as a command in itself. Not as an individual report, but a part of the complete picture that is to be deduced by arranging all the pieces in right order.
However it should not be thought that the verse was revealed to those women only � because quran is a binding on all muslims of all times. As the quran says 'today I perfected your religion �.' The continuity of implication of this command(to cover) on the women of future generations was revealed in the verses that make QURAN applicable on all people of all times.}}}

Actually I was referring to the qur�anic verse 24:31, no hadiths. As I have looked there is no saying about hair or head. To me it should be stated so, even thou the hadiths explain the verses in the qu�ran.

Apart from that I get what you say :-)

{{{There is no condition to cover the face. As it was acceptable in the times of the prophet as well for women to leave their faces uncovered.
The ummulmomineen(mothers of believers or the wives of the prophets) did cover their faces, and they were not ordered by the prophet not to }}}

How do you explain the hadiths that say so, that the Prophet ordered them?
And I thought is was about head covering not face veiling?
Too much confussion ;-)), did I miss something ?

{{{The other question you ask is, about the slaves who were believers. Well, they were supposed to cover like other women � thus they did not cover their faces, but followed the rest of the dress code.}}}

Ok :-)

{{{As u quoted yourself, this was 'Aisha bint talha' �. Which means Aisha DAUGHTER OF TALHA.
Aisha daughter of talha was NOT ummulmomineen, I think u are confusing her with AISHA BINT ABU BAKR who was Aisha DAUGHTER OF ABU BAKR, the wife of the holy prophet, and thus ummulmomineen.
Since aisha bint talha was an ordinary muslimah, it was not required of her to cover her face. Does this remove the contradiction ;) ? }}}

Yes :-)
Some how forgot reading that it was the face, was too focused on the hijab I think ;-)

{{{The choices of those women were not personal choices, but those which were in accordance with the quran, and their choices were approved by the messenger. Therefore how the messenger understood the order, how he approved the women's dress code, is the correct way of following it.}}}

It seems different people have different understandings, why do some muslim women cry out to go back to the true islam of not wearing the hijab?
Are these women simply wrong (in your view) ?
I cannot see how these women would be all wrong?


I will write up something else, in time because I�ve realized something.


At them moment there is this, if Sahih al-Bukhari is recognized as authentic and is valid for you.
This verse below:
�The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab"

Here Muhammad rejected Umar�s request for veiling and seems to went out to prove his point after being rejected to get the verses for Al-Hijab. And so when the point was shown to the Prophet somehow the verses appeared from Allah more so upon Umar�s request.
What�s the deal here ? Why is Umar somehow dictating what should be revealed in the qur�an?
And why was Umar spying on the Prophet�s wives answering the call of nature ;-))


That�s it for the time being :-)

As for all the other stuff, explanation you gave I get but it doesn�t stop me from questioning stuff thou ;-))


Angel.