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Crucifixion of Jesus

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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 September 2014 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:


 if God really loved us, why would He send His son to die for our sins?  Why didn't He come Himself?  If I loved someone, I wouldn't send my son to show my love.  I would go myself to the person I love. 

And if you say that the "son" was "God", then you are saying that "God" sent "Himself".  From there, you fall into an unending maze of circular logic.

Greetings islamispeace,

You must learn to think with more than the human mind. Smile

You see God did come Himself....

I think what you don't understand is, the concept of the word 'Son', was a way to denote God in the flesh... He came to us in the form of flesh... as a part of Himself... as a 'Son'.  He could not come to us any other way.  He could not come to us as Himself. 

     Exodus 33:18-23
    And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Have you considered that the Creator is a form of energy which is too great for us to endure the exposure to?  Have you considered that Yshwe, Son of God, born of woman, was the only way that He could come to us in a way that we could finally relate to Him?  In a way that we could understand and follow Him.. to walk with Him?

People had only been able to experience God while His glory was veiled in some way. When He appeared on Mount Sinai, He was veiled in a thick cloud. When He appeared to Moses, He allowed Moses to look only on his back parts.
Men might see some sort of appearance of God, but he cannot look upon God in the fullness of His glory.
So He came to us in the form of the flesh... as the Son... still a veiled form and not in His fullness of glory.

and yet, 'even if one were to rise from the dead, still you would not believe'

31 And He said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.  (the words of Yshwe)

Who are we to question God and His ways?
I have suggested before... every muslim needs to read the book of Job.

Job 38 -
Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.


4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who s*****p the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
....

Job 39 continues....

- Job 40
Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said,

2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

6 Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

....
- Job 42
Then Job answered the Lord, and said,

2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Peace and blessings to you,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 25 September 2014 at 9:18pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kometa2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 September 2014 at 12:35am
God is love and He DID provide salvation  for ALL people to be saved. He gave Himself instead of us, He died so that we can live. He suffered so that we can be whole. He was the ransome in our place. Nobody HAS TO go to hell. All they need to do is to CHOOSE Jesus as their Lord and Savior and RECEIVE the FREE gift of salvation. Salvationis a done deal. It is a gift. Nobody can or has to deserve a gift.
Jesus saved us 2000 years AGO when we did not even exist. He died on the cross to save us. He died for us before we ever did anything good or bad.
So only those who REJECT salvation go to hell. But they dont have to go there. It is their choice to do that. But God provided salvation for all mankind. He proved His love for us. Love is practical, sacrificial or it is only a word on paper which does not cost a thing and is worthless.

Jesus came to the earth to die for us and instead of us because HE wanted it. Nobody can force God to do something He does not want. He is ALMIGHTY or He is no God at all. He did it for us OUT OF LOVE.

Yes, God decided to come to th earth. God is ONE and He is Triune. He came in the Person of Jesus. To die in our place.
Every miracle God makes defies logic. Miracle is a suspense of logic and of natural laws and yet the very NATURE of God is the nature of power and miracles. If He does not show it He is no God at all. The Bible God always made miracles to prove His word and that He is true and always had contact with pople. Otherwise He would be only a dead religion but He is not. He is real and has relationship with people He created for Himself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kometa2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 September 2014 at 12:55am
The Bible is given to us by Jesuswho is sinless and never lied. The Bible is proved by archeology, scienceand history. The Bible is confirmed by what those who believe in it EXPERIENCE. For example: the Bible talks about supernatural gift of speking a prayer tounge which we never learned. It is a gift from God, supernatural gift. The apostles spoek in tongues and it was a sign to the world. We also speak in tongues becuse God is always a God of miracles. Otherwise He would be just a dead religion but the true God is a real Person who always had and has contact with people and who always proved His word by power by miracles by signs and wonders.
Of course we should not believe ramblings of people whose life was evil and immoral. That is why we can believe every single word Jesus said. Because He never lied, never sinned and He said I am THE Truth. So there is no truth but in Jesus alone. Especially that Jesus proved what He said by miracles and by pure holy life.


The Bible is a prophetic Book! God says that He will use prophecy to prove He is real and to prove the Bible is His Word. (Isa 46:9-10)
God says what will happen before it happens because He knows the end from the beginning. 2/3 out of about 2000 Bible prophecies are already fulfilled!


History shows facts not emotions. Facts are facts. There are witnesses and records. Otherwise it is no fact. There were more witnesses to resurrection of Jesus than to many other historical figures and archeologists discover more and more manuscripts which prove and confirm what the Bible said and what Jesus said.

Not only did Jesus say He came to die on the cross but the old testament prophecies about it and also history confirms it and there were witnesses to it. But the main proof is what Jesus Himself said. Sinless Jesus who never lied.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kometa2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 September 2014 at 12:57am
Can you show me where the witnesses contradict one  another? Only then your argument may be considered as a true and valid one.Otherwise it is only a personal opinion, an assumption or in the worst case falsehood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kometa2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:11am
God is NOT a schizophrenic. 600 years before Muhammad Jesus came and said who He is (God) and said what He came to do (die on the cross for huanity to save and redeem us) and He taught us to love our enemies, to treat others as we want to be traeted, He taught on monogmous marriage, He told His desciples to respect one another, to serve one another, to esteem others as above themselves, to live a humble life. He made people God's children. So 600 years later He could not change His mind and say: no, you are not my children but slaves. You are not saved any more, you have to save yourself with good works, you may have more wives and on and on.
Especially that God alrady said in the Bible that nobody can add even a word to the completed message of the Bible and completed message of the Bible.

Jesus already fulfilled the whole will of the Father. He reconciled people with the Father, he madu us children of God and we have now direct access to the throne of God. We are now prophets, kings and priests who have direct intimate and personal relationship with God! We already have everything because of what Jesus did on the cross. And we now have the same power Jesus had because God Himself lives in us and enables us to live a pure moral life. Without Him living on the inside of us nobody can live a pure life. That is impossible. Only holy God empowers us to that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kometa2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:18am
In modern scholarship, the baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus.For example, James Dunn
states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical facts" that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus. Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.Craig Blomberg states that most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.Christopher M. Tuckett states that, although the exact reasons for the death of Jesus are hard to determine, one of the indisputable facts about him is that he was crucified.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islamispeace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 September 2014 at 6:39am
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

You must learn to think with more than the human mind. Smile


What?!  The last time I checked, we are all humans here.  So, what else else would we "think with" other than the "human mind"? Confused

If God wanted us to believe in a religion that required "more than the human mind" to comprehend, He would have given us a "divine mind".  Since He obviously didn't, the conclusion I come to is that Christians simply cannot give a straight and logical answer to difficult questions, so they resort to circular logic in order to explain the confusing doctrines of their religion.

Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

You see God did come Himself....

I think what you don't understand is, the concept of the word 'Son', was a way to denote God in the flesh... He came to us in the form of flesh... as a part of Himself... as a 'Son'.  He could not come to us any other way.  He could not come to us as Himself. 


So, God came down Himself but decided to call Himself His own son?  Confused

Not only that, He also worshiped Himself?  Jesus (peace be upon him) clearly worshiped God.  The Gospels are very clear on this.  So, are you saying God was worshiping Himself?!

Finally, notice the part of your post that I bolded.  You claim that God "could not come to us any other way".  I don't think that you can use the words "could not" when you are talking about All-Mighty, All-Powerful God.  God can do anything, so when someone says that He "could not" do something, I don't think they quite understand the concept of an All-Mighty, All-Powerful God. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kometa2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:13pm
God is triune. The Three Persons of the Godhead are ONE GOD.
God is not a human and He doesnt fall under the human rules That is why He is God He is ABOVE everything. Every miracle is a suspence of the human physical laws and yet God breaks those laws each time He manifests in our lives Even more, if He doesnt make miracles then He would be no God at all since the very nature of God is power So God HAS to prove Himself by miracles (and He always did it) otherwise you may folow false gods and now know it....
God reeives our worship. Jesus worshipped the Father as a man. And the Father said He glorified Jesus. They are one in everything.
Yes, God could not come in any other way to us because He gave the world to the huan race and only as a human could He get it back. He made the rules and He never breaks them. God never lies or is above the law He created He hates lying and deception. He is a humble God and the greatest Servant That is His nature. And that causes that he cannot break His own words, since there is no confusion in Him.
He became a man to set mankind free. He had to do it asa man because HE decided to give mankind authority over the earth. God is very logical.

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