What is the Anti-Christ in Islam |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Greetings islamispeace, This is where-in we dispute. 'most of the Bible' was not 'written by Paul or his followers'. The Word of Yshwe was passed on by His followers, and the followers of Peter and the other Apostles, through oral tradition... these are what were later written down, by several authors, all in different places, but all obviously hearing the same Word. These are the witnesses... the Apostle's who tested his story, and accepted Paul. We can accept these witnesses because they all told the same story, even in many different places, and even recorded in different languages. nothing to do with Paul. If Paul's letters had spoken anything different, these followers would have disputed with him. You must understand that Paul's ministry did not begin until many years after his conversion, and his ministry had always to be approved first by Peter and the other Apostles. Christianity had been around for a decade or two before Paul ever became a disciple and part of the church. If you have read Paul's letters then you should recognize and know that they are not teachings, but they are letters of encouragement... encouraging the followers to remain steadfast in the way in which they had been taught... taught not by Paul, but by the earlier Apostle's. Paul wrote to the established churches. asalaam. Edited by Caringheart - 08 October 2014 at 11:22am |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Greetings islamispeace, I wanted to take time to study these passages which you ask about, and to have guidance of the Holy Spirit in answering. I see Paul as trying to teach a deeper meaning. I feel that he elaborates on the message of Christ. He is increasing the understanding that, if we understand that there is no God but God, then what meaning or effect does it have on our conscience if we eat food that another believes he has sacrificed to his god, which isn't really a god at all? It is of no effect on us. However we are to guard against causing another to stumble where-in they might think we are eating of food that is sacrificed to another god. Only those of weaker 'conscience', or understanding, might be led astray in eating food that they think has been sacrificed to a god, or idol. I take the message in Revelation to be against tolerating those that do not have clear understanding that there is no God but God... those that may lead others to believe that when they eat of certain foods they are consecrating themselves to other gods. I believe the message in Revelation to be a warning against allowing these to cause others to stumble... those who do not have a clear understanding that no food can be offered to another god or have any effect upon us because there is no other God but God. To be sure that they are teaching that no food can consecrate anyone to a god... that it is not in what we eat that we are consecrated... it is in our hearts that we are consecrated to God... and we must not allow people to be led astray in thinking eating certain food consecrates them to some other god. This is what Jezebel was trying to do... to convince people that they should eat of certain foods (foods sacrificed to idols)... to live as she lived... because they would gain something from it. This is false leading... leading through temptation and falsehood. I think it is helpful to read Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 8, in the NLT(New Living Translation). I couldn't decide if I should post it here. I like to keep replies short and readable, and believe others will go the step further on their own, as I like to do. I read also, Revelation 2, in the NLT(New Living Translation) asalaam. note: the only food that is said to consecrate us to God, is the eating of the bread and the wine... the Manna of Christ... body of Christ... bread of life. note #2: I personally would steer clear of any food that I think may have been offered as a sacrifice, simply because I do not want to invite any unwanted spirits into my life in any way, shape, or form. I do not want to partake of anything not of my God. In a way though this is like saying I do not put my full faith and trust in Yshwe's Word. I perhaps am afraid to take the chance of having a chink in my armor which the devil might find a way through... much as yourself I would guess. Edited by Caringheart - 07 October 2014 at 1:27pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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You did not answer my question. Who were these "witnesses"? See, the problem is that everything you say is based on the Bible, most of which was written by Paul or his followers. The rest were written by anonymous people whom we know nothing about. Who would accept such poor "witnesses"? It's really quite simple, but I understand you must accept the false apostle because it is the only way you can fault the Islamic religion and hold to your own. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Ananais would surely have denied the account if it had been made up... and Paul would never have been accepted into the fold by Peter and the other Apostles. There were witnesses to testify to the conversion of Paul, or the Apostles would never have accepted him... and Paul would never have given up his status to become one of the persecuted without some miraculous happening. It's really quite simple, but I understand you must not accept him because it is the only way you can fault the Christian religion and hold to your own. asalaam. |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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This is typical Christian incoherence. Where was the "fullness" in Revelations when Jesus apparently condemned the churches for eating food sacrificed to idols? Was Jesus contradicting himself? It seems pretty clear to me that Jesus was talking about the washing of hands in Matthew. You will notice that the Pharisees didn't harangue Jesus and his disciples for eating non-kosher food. If they were eating something that was forbidden, the Pharisees would have been less concerned with the washing of hands. And as for the "witnesses" to Paul's encounter, the Bible offers contradictory information. I already said that. Does it ever occur to you that he simply made up the encounter and pretended that there were "witnesses"? Who were these "witnesses"? You really must be afraid of the truth. Oh well...
There have been many people who have been willing to undergo persecution for something they believed in. Does that mean that they all experienced something "miraculous". Many Muslims went to their deaths for believing in Islam. They were brutally persecuted. Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself suffered immense persecution. He was stoned. He was attacked. He almost even died during one incident. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Allow me to share the Word of Yshwe, as recorded in the book of Matthew, chapter 15;
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. 12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. 15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. 16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. 21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. and Mark, chapter 7 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. 14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. 16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. 18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. Now I could look at this as a teaching only on the washing of hands... and then say that Paul re-interpreted the meaning of the words of Yshwe... but I see that he only delivered the fullness of the meaning of Yshwe's Word, as he was chosen by God Himself to bring in the gentile people as well as the Jew. (You do have to study and know ALL of the scriptures to see the Truth) I can see that Paul was called by God, so I have no problem with His teaching. I can see no reason why a man of high standing would turn his life around to be persecuted for Christ unless something miraculous happened... and there is the testimony of Ananais as well. 'By the witness of two is a thing established.' Paul did not merely speak of his encounter on his own... there were witnesses. You really must know the fullness of the scriptures. Edited by Caringheart - 07 October 2014 at 12:21pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Um, no. It would be saying that Paul invented his own "gospel" and spread it around. This "gospel" contradicted Jesus' teachings in more ways than one. Why do you keep ignoring Paul's epic fail regarding the eating of food sacrificed to idols? What are you afraid of? Come on caringheart. I say this with all seriousness. You need to accept the truth about Paul. He was not a true apostle. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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That would be saying that Paul had all the Gospels... which were written by different people, in different places and languages, in order to record eyewitness oral retelling of the events of Yshwe's life... written. Edited by Caringheart - 07 October 2014 at 12:24pm |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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