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Are These Acts of Idolatry?
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islamispeace View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Are you aware that, at least in the United States, even disposing of a damaged or worn out flag has to be done in a "respectful" way?


No, it doesn't have to be done in any particular way.  If you want to follow the instructions you linked to ("edited by BarefootedWonder and 28 others"LOL), go ahead; but trust me, if you choose to dispose of your worn out flag in the trash, nothing bad will happen.

The US Flag Code presents guidelines for public and ceremonial use of the flag.  It "errs on the side of caution" so as not to offend anyone; and yes, if a nosy neighbour happens to see a US flag in your trash, he might be offended.  So just tell him it was an old worn-out flag and you intended no disrespect.  If he persists, tell him he is committing the fallacy of reification. Wink


Sure, it doesn't have to be disposed that way, but the very fact that there are "suggestions" shows that the flag is much more than just "cloth". 

Also, there is a law which prescribes a fine and possible jail time for anyone who deliberately desecrates the flag:

"Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both." (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/700)

Again, why would this be so if the flag is just a piece of "cloth"?  What if someone deliberately defaced a bedsheet made from the same material?  LOL   
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Andrew Eby View Drop Down
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Points: 10 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Eby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 August 2014 at 11:50am
Yes, my brother. As a follower of Christ I believe our actions have stripped away from us by FALSE teachings. The act of kneeling before your savior, the KING!! Has been stripped from the publics eye. I myself see this very evident throughout the United States. I want to get back to God and give him my FREE WILL back because my WILL is to serve HIM, rejoice in HIM and KNEEL before HIM. So I believe you still don't understand the meaning in being a follower. All the religions are connected and the day we come together and philosophy like logical human beings and stop fighting on who's wrong and who's right, why don't we all come together out of love and piece this together. One people, one destiny, one GOD is our destiny as the human race. I would love to speak with the leaders of Islam about this issue we have in religions. So much fighting an desperation from the one TRUE fact, that ALL of us are HIS children and look at how GOD must feel right now with all the religions fighting and bickering I'm who's right and who's wrong, CHILDISH, as we are STILL CHILDREN fighting amongst ourselves, let's grow up and come together and fight for what is TRUTH and what is RIGHT and put the past behind us so we can grow in HIM together as one PEOPLE. I beg the leaders of the world to lay down the weapons and stop death. Why do you think there is son much death?? Truth has been long hidden, and you know that saying?? " you can't handle the truth" that's absolutely TRUE. We can't handle the truth in these days because the TRUTH has been manipulated, distorted to the point where we fight amongst ourselves I have the evidence for that. Tower of Babel. Telling the truth is a hard thing to do because it can make someone mad, angry, jealous, hated and everything that that coincides with evil if you do not tell the truth. Why do you think there is so much death in the world?? All those emotions lead to one ending and that's DEATH. Like I said I love all of the people in this world and my words are kind and gentle. Power of info is our finger tips, and really appreciate this site for letting express my feelings to other religions around the world and to hear what other people have to say. We are connecting as we speak lol
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Sure, it doesn't have to be disposed that way, but the very fact that there are "suggestions" shows that the flag is much more than just "cloth".

Indeed, it is also a symbol of American values.  It is the symbolic significance that is treated respectfully (or not), not the mere cloth.

Quote Also, there is a law which prescribes a fine and possible jail time for anyone who deliberately desecrates the flag:

FYI, the Flag Protection Act was struck down as unconstitutional in 1990.  It was deemed to be an unreasonable infringement on freedom of expression.  The Supreme Court's ruling emphasized the distinction between the symbolic value of the flag, versus its physical manifestation:

"The Government's interest in protecting the 'physical integrity' of a privately owned flag rests upon a perceived need to preserve the flag's status as a symbol of our Nation and certain national ideals. But the mere destruction or disfigurement of a particular physical manifestation of the symbol, without more, does not diminish or otherwise affect the symbol itself in any way. For example, the secret destruction of a flag in one's own basement would not threaten the flag's recognized meaning. Rather, the Government's desire to preserve the flag as a symbol for certain national ideals is implicated "only when a person's treatment of the flag communicates [a] message" to others that is inconsistent with those ideals."
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Re: idols and idol worship

The Lord tonight has revealed to me this thing which may be useful to putting aside misunderstandings and aggreviances.
When Muhammad came to the arab people to teach them about the One God... they were worshiping many gods, one of which was The God, al-Lah.
Their idols of these gods were present in the ka'aba and the people came to give them tribute.  Muhammad made clear that there was only One God(allah) and these idols to other gods were worthless.

The statues of the Catholic church are not idols to other gods... they are in honor and representative of the One God... the One who chose Mary to conceive, carry, and bear Yshwe...
they honor and represent Yshwe, sent to bring the Word, the Gospel, the Good News, to all people....
they represent the saints that have gone to their deaths in service to the One true God.

asalaam.


Edited by Caringheart - 04 August 2014 at 7:12pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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islamispeace View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Indeed, it is also a symbol of American values.  It is the symbolic significance that is treated respectfully (or not), not the mere cloth.


Oh please.  If it was "mere cloth" and only the "symbolic significance" was important, then no one would get upset at the desecration of the "cloth". 

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

YI, the Flag Protection Act was struck down as unconstitutional in 1990.  It was deemed to be an unreasonable infringement on freedom of expression.  The Supreme Court's ruling emphasized the distinction between the symbolic value of the flag, versus its physical manifestation:

"The Government's interest in protecting the 'physical integrity' of a privately owned flag rests upon a perceived need to preserve the flag's status as a symbol of our Nation and certain national ideals. But the mere destruction or disfigurement of a particular physical manifestation of the symbol, without more, does not diminish or otherwise affect the symbol itself in any way. For example, the secret destruction of a flag in one's own basement would not threaten the flag's recognized meaning. Rather, the Government's desire to preserve the flag as a symbol for certain national ideals is implicated "only when a person's treatment of the flag communicates [a] message" to others that is inconsistent with those ideals."


Nevertheless, the fact that a law was even considered shows that the flag is much more than just "cloth".  The Supreme Court may have struck down the law and given its own opinions, but it doesn't change the fact that the law was in place to prosecute those who desecrate the flag.  This illustrates that it is not just a "symbol".  Besides, the Supreme Court struck down the law simply because it was, in its opinion, a violation of the First Amendment.  What does that have to do with whether the flag is a symbol or not?   
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Oh please.  If it was "mere cloth" and only the "symbolic significance" was important, then no one would get upset at the desecration of the "cloth".

Confused That's what I just said.  No one should be upset at the destruction of a piece of cloth.  (Not "desecration" -- you can't desecrate a piece of cloth.)  The only people who would get upset are those who mistakenly see a symbolic significance in the act, where none is intended.
 
Quote Nevertheless, the fact that a law was even considered shows that the flag is much more than just "cloth".  The Supreme Court may have struck down the law and given its own opinions, but it doesn't change the fact that the law was in place to prosecute those who desecrate the flag.  This illustrates that it is not just a "symbol".  Besides, the Supreme Court struck down the law simply because it was, in its opinion, a violation of the First Amendment.  What does that have to do with whether the flag is a symbol or not?

It has everything to do with it.  The mere destruction of a piece of cloth does not communicate anything and therefore cannot be a violation of the First Amendment.  The First Amendment only comes into play when the flag is used as a symbol and the act of destroying it is intended to communicate a message of disrespect for the values it represents.  That intention is what makes the act offensive -- not the mere destruction of a piece of cloth.

And in exactly the same way, bowing or praying before a statue is only an act of idolatry when the intention is to worship the statue itself.  If the statue is a symbol for God and the intention is to direct one's prayers to God, then it is merely a focus of worship (like the Black Stone), not an object of worship.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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islamispeace View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Confused That's what I just said.  No one should be upset at the destruction of a piece of cloth.  (Not "desecration" -- you can't desecrate a piece of cloth.)  The only people who would get upset are those who mistakenly see a symbolic significance in the act, where none is intended.


LOL Your personal opinions are irrelevant.  The fact remains that people do take offense when a flag is "desecrated", regardless of whether you feel that they shouldn't.  So yes, you can desecrate a "piece of cloth".

If it was merely the "symbol" that is important, then there shouldn't even be a "flag".  What the flag supposedly stands for are abstract concepts like "freedom" or "democracy". You can't "desecrate" freedom or democracy, but you can desecrate the physical representation of them, i.e. the flag.  So, if people simply stop using flags, then there will not be a problem at all of desecration.  You can't desecrate something that has no physical form.

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It has everything to do with it.  The mere destruction of a piece of cloth does not communicate anything and therefore cannot be a violation of the First Amendment.  The First Amendment only comes into play when the flag is used as a symbol and the act of destroying it is intended to communicate a message of disrespect for the values it represents.  That intention is what makes the act offensive -- not the mere destruction of a piece of cloth.

And in exactly the same way, bowing or praying before a statue is only an act of idolatry when the intention is to worship the statue itself.  If the statue is a symbol for God and the intention is to direct one's prayers to God, then it is merely a focus of worship (like the Black Stone), not an object of worship.



What does "intention" have to do with the simple fact that the law was struck down on the basis of "freedom of expression" or that the law was put into effect at all before being struck down?  Whatever the intention was, the law was in place and was then declared "unconstitutional".  Period.  and by the way, even the Supreme Court was divided on the issue.  It was a 5-4 decision to declare the law "unconstitutional".

Praying to a statue and making offerings to it is idolatry because those are acts of worship.  If "focus" was the intention, then people could just stare at a wall or at the ground, or just close their eyes.  Idols would not even be needed, in the same way that a flag is not needed as a "symbol" for "freedom".   


Edited by islamispeace - 05 August 2014 at 8:50am
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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abuayisha View Drop Down
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http://www.ktre.com/story/25970417/houston-county-flag-desecration-case-gets-new-life
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