Are These Acts of Idolatry?

Ron Webb wrote: Apparently ISIS (or at least some of its members) also sees a resemblance between Muslim prayer and idolatry.  I know, I know, he is wrong to call it "worshipping stones"; but he is wrong in exactly the same way that that you are wrong to say that about Christians "worshipping statues".

Well, first of all, it has not been verified that the specific tweet was from an ISIS member or was promoted by the group itself.  According to the Huffington Post:

"The Twitter account https://twitter.com/nm8smyh, which sent the original message, has been suspended. The authenticity of the account as belonging to an ISIS member has not been verified." (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/01/isis-destroy-kaaba-mecca_n_5547635.html)

Second, your clownish ineptitude keeps getting funnier and funnier!  As I have already stated several times, we know for a fact that some Christians literally pray to statues and that Hindus pray to their idols.  Do Muslims pray to the black stone?  NO!  Ding, ding, ding!

Ron Webb wrote: Only if their intent was to express disrespect for the ideals it represents.  If the flag is worn out or no longer needed, it can simply be tossed it in the trash and nobody would be upset.  (Well, maybe a few "ignorant superficial observers", but nobody with a lick of sense.)

What difference does that make?  The fact remains that to many people, the flag is a sacred object and deliberately desecrating it is seen as an offensive act. 

Ron Webb wrote: And what if I kiss it, as some romantic fellows are inclined to do?  It still doesn't mean we are in love with a piece of paper.

Except that Muslims don't kiss pictures of the black stone, but actually the stone itself. 

But some Christians and most Hindus literally pray to their statues.  Hindus even make offerings to them and some have even claimed that their idols accepted offerings of milk! 

Ron Webb wrote: At the heart of all of this is the fallacy of reification: the mistake of confusing the symbol with the thing that it represents.  Many Hindus make that mistake, and maybe even some Christians; but any knowledgable worshipper understands the difference.  Apparently ISIS makes the mistake too -- and so do you.

Oh, so Mr. Ron Webb is going to set the record straight, eh? 

Let it be proclaimed:

All Christians and Hindus who pray to statues, Mr. Ron Webb is going to set you straight!  You may not know it, but he has an impressive resume.  He has done about 10-15 minutes of Google research and wants to let you know that you have made some "mistakes" in how you practice your religion...

So, now it seems that you are not only a fake Sheik, but a trickster Minister and phony pundit...

After all this, the original question remains unanswered.  Were the pictures shown examples of idolatry, especially in light of the fact that Christians and Hindus definitely do pray to idols (despite Mr. Ron Webb's special pleading)? 


Edited by islamispeace - 30 July 2014 at 3:16pm

islamispeace wrote: As I have already stated several times, we know for a fact that some Christians literally pray to statues and that Hindus pray to their idols.

Find me a single Christian who literally prays to a statue.  That's utter nonsense.

The fact remains that to many people, the flag is a sacred object and deliberately desecrating it is seen as an offensive act.

Of course it is, because desecrating implies intent.

Except that Muslims don't kiss pictures of the black stone, but actually the stone itself.

And surely kissing the stone itself would imply idolatry more strongly than kissing a picture.  Whose side are you arguing here?

islamispeace wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvIV4UIBSHE LOL "Utter nonsense", indeed.

FOX "News"?  Okay, there's your first problem. Trust them to describe it as "praying to a statue".

The obvious intention of the people praying is to address their prayers not to a heap of plaster and paint, but to the person it represents, i.e. the Virgin Mary -- which I agree is a problem in itself, but the problem is polytheism, not idolatry.

Ron Webb wrote: Of course it is, because desecrating implies intent. What difference does that make?  Intent or not, if the flag is really just a piece of "cloth", then who cares if it is desecrated or not?  Obviously, if someone gets upset at the flag's desecration, they must see it as more than just a piece of "cloth".

OMG, you're actually serious!  Sorry, I didn't realize the first time that it was a real question.  Okay, bear with me.  I'll try to answer, but if you truly don't understand the distinction, then this is going to be difficult.  I'll go slow.

Suppose I meet someone for the first time, and his first words to me are a string of obscenities.  I will naturally assume that he is rude and disrespectful, and will want to have as little as possible to do with him.

...Until he explains to me that he suffers from Tourette Syndrome.  He is not intending to be rude or disrespectful; the words just burst out of his mouth at random, and he can't suppress them no matter how hard he tries.

Knowing that makes all the difference.  The "words" do not convey any meaning at all.  They are simply noises he inadvertently makes with his mouth, and I will disregard them accordingly.

That is the difference that intention makes.

If someone destroys a flag for purely practical reasons, without any intention to be disrespectful to the country it represents, then no reasonable person would be offended by that.  On the other hand, if he desecrates a flag, it is with the deliberate intention of insulting the country.  That would be offensive -- but it is the intention that is offensive, not the act of destruction itself.

islamispeace wrote: Are you aware that, at least in the United States, even disposing of a damaged or worn out flag has to be done in a "respectful" way?

No, it doesn't have to be done in any particular way.  If you want to follow the instructions you linked to ("edited by BarefootedWonder and 28 others"), go ahead; but trust me, if you choose to dispose of your worn out flag in the trash, nothing bad will happen.

The US Flag Code presents guidelines for public and ceremonial use of the flag.  It "errs on the side of caution" so as not to offend anyone; and yes, if a nosy neighbour happens to see a US flag in your trash, he might be offended.  So just tell him it was an old worn-out flag and you intended no disrespect.  If he persists, tell him he is committing the fallacy of reification.