Are These Acts of Idolatry? |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Who says they couldn't pray? Certainly Christians can pray without their statues and crosses, etc. I don't know much about Hinduism but I see no reason why they couldn't pray without an idol.
I'm saying that anyone looking at a picture of Muslims near the black stone, and comparing it with the pictures given in the opening post, would not be able to see any difference. Therefore the pictures themselves are not evidence of idol worship, as was implied.
Surely an (alleged) fragment of Paradise would be more than a "mere stone".
Why would you show respect for a "mere stone"? On the other hand, if your respect is for the alleged divine nature of the stone (which by the way is not Islamic doctrine, but pure mythology), then surely that is idolatry.
I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying it's okay to imagine an image of God, as long as you don't draw or sculpt it? If so, is it okay to think evil thoughts about God, as long as you don't write them down or share them with anyone? I think most religions would say that if something is a sin, then thinking about it is also a sin. (I don't agree, but then I don't agree with a lot of religious ideas.) Your analogy with adultery is not apt because adultery has potential real-world consequences (pregnancy, STDs, social disruption) that the mere thought does not. IMHO a better analogy would be to fantasizing about sex, versus writing down that fantasy. Is the former any better or worse than the latter?
Partly because as far as I can tell it was just a personal web site, and I'm not sure on whose behalf Mr. Krishnamurthy is writing. But mostly because he really isn't saying anything substantially different. As he says, "in Hinduism the same question will have different answers to different levels of questioners." So at a basic level of understanding, the idol may be regarded as the god itself; but a more sophisticated practitioner will recognize that "an idol serves the same purpose ... as a flag does for an army,", i.e. as a symbol for an abstract ideal. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Certainly Christians can pray without the need of their statues, but Hindus are idol worshipers, period. You may "see no reason" why they cannot pray without an idol, and yet, they do! So you point is moot.
Well then, they would be wrong then, wouldn't they Ron? I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that the pictures above "are not evidence of idol worship". I would think a person kneeling to a statue or an idol would be "evidence of idol worship"! Moreover, we already know that Hindus worship idols and that some Christians (mostly Catholics) pray to statues of the Virgin Mary and the saints (as well as Jesus). So the above pictures are just a visual example of what we already know.
Sure, which is why Muslims tried very hard to retrieve the stone from the Qarmathians. Otherwise, they could have just placed another stone to serve as a marker. The point is that it is believed to be a fragment of Paradise (your personal opinions about whether it is or isn't is irrelevant ), and not an object of worship or prayer. Anyone who otherwise thinks so is an i-d-i-o-t. In contrast, some Christians literally pray to their statues and Hindus literally worship their idols and pray to them for help.
Still not getting it, eh? We show respect to its origin from Paradise (again your personal opinions whether it is "mythology" or not are irrelevant ), because Paradise is essentially our origin as well. Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) were originally in Paradise before they were removed. Paradise is the "eternal home" of the believers, and one which we must strive to reach: "Say: Shall I give you glad tidings of things Far better than those? For the righteous are Gardens in nearness to their Lord, with rivers flowing beneath; therein is their eternal home; with companions pure (and holy); and the good pleasure of Allah. For in Allah's sight are (all) His servants,-" (Surah Al-Imran, 3:15) You can try to redefine what "idol worship" is all you want. The fact remains that Muslims do not pray to the stone or worship it. You still haven't explained why you think that merely showing "respect" is somehow "idol worship".
No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that just because you may draw an image of God does not mean that it is an excuse to commit idolatry, since God is formless. I am also saying that such thoughts should be shunned, but that sometimes we cannot control our thoughts. But as long as we do not act on those thoughts, then it is not necessarily a sin. How can it be if you cannot help it? However, we should strive to avoid such thoughts as much as we can. Such thoughts, from an Islamic point of view, are from Satan.
Actually, with things like condoms and contraception, it is pretty easy to avoid such things as pregnancy and STDs. So my analogy is still apt. Moreover, things like pregnancy and STDs are clearly not a deterrent against adultery. In many western countries, it is a common occurrence.
Oh so the website you referenced was somehow the "official" view? Don't make me laugh! You still haven't explained why, if the idol is not literally the deity to the "more sophisticated practitioner", then why do these "sophisticated practitioners" make offerings to the idol and literally pray to it? Why can't they pray without it, as you suggested above? Edited by islamispeace - 29 June 2014 at 11:28am |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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It does not go unnoticed that, so far, none of you have bothered to actually answer the question, and instead, have tried to change the subject. Oh well... So Lachi, can you elaborate some more on your post? What "intent" are you referring to with regard to the people seen in the pictures? Does "intent" change the fact that they are praying to statues? As I explained to Ron, the pictures serve as visual examples of behavior which is already widely known. We know for a fact that Hindus pray to idols of their gods. We know for a fact that some Christians pray to statues of the Virgin Mary and of the saints and of course Jesus (peace be upon him). Do you deny these facts? Here is another fact for you: Muslims do not...to repeat...DO NOT pray to the black stone. So what "double standards" are you referring to? Now back to the question which you all seem to want to desperately ignore: Which of the pictures shown exhibit the act of idolatry? Cue the Jeopardy theme... |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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They do? Go to Google Images and search for "Hindus praying". You'll see a fair number of idols, but in most pictures there are none.
Yes, they would be wrong, just as you would be wrong to infer idol worship merely from the pictures. That's my point.
Well, we just established that a Muslim bowing to a black stone is not evidence of idol worship.
But you just agreed that Christians can pray without statues. Are you still insisting that they worship idols? Why?
One can only have respect for a person, not for an inanimate object. But let me repeat: I am not saying that Musims worship the stone. I am simply saying that the question is more complicated than merely showing pictures of worshippers bowing or prostrating before an object.
The Christian view is that it's still a sin even if we can't help it. ("All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.") Anyway, I don't care about that. What I'm saying is that no modern religion, properly understood, believes that man-made objects of wood or stone or paint can have magical, god-like powers. At best that is a simplified view and represents a naive understanding of the religion's true teaching. And all religions, as far as I am aware, have some sort of physical object as the focus for their worship. Whether you call it an idol or not depends on your definition, but merely pointing to such an object does not prove idol worship.
The point is that actions have consequences, while thoughts alone do not.
The web site I referenced is the official site of the Sanskrit Religions Institute. I don't know much more about it, but it's clearly more than one man's personal web site.
As far as I know they can. Have you any evidence to the contrary? |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Short answer: it's impossible to know from the pictures alone. Edited by Ron Webb - 01 July 2014 at 5:50am |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Lachi
Senior Member Male Joined: 18 February 2014 Status: Offline Points: 140 |
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This was my point. Without understanding the intent of the people you cannot know whether it is idolatry. Just as Muslims 'appear' to pray to the Kaabah, once their intent is explained it is seen that such an image could be misleading. Each of the pictures 'could' be idolatry, but when the intent of the participants is explained the situation might be very different. |
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