The irony in using science to deny Allah

Al-E-Imran 3:190-191: Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth and (in) the difference of night and day are tokens (of His Sovereignty) for men of understanding, (190) Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire. (191)

airmano wrote: To come to the main point: I openly admit that there are many things that I/we don't know. I also realize that we may never know the ultimate truth. It may not even exist. I go along with the (islamic) scientist Averroes who claimed that Logic combined with our senses are the [only] tool to get closer to the truth. I prefer this uncertainty to the [in my eyes] rather silly statement �We have the truth� (just google �Islam, truth� and you'll see). To me the claim of holding the [ultimate] truth just looks like bare ignorance.

So you are in a situation of uncertainty with no definite answers and you have seen neither science nor your reason can give you full answers. But a sincere approach to Quran can, the choice is yours whether to remain in dark or seek the light and of course with Allah's will:

Al-Maeda 5:16: Whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness unto light by His decree, and guideth them unto a straight path.

First of all, I am happy we have nobody here using science to deny the existence of Allah.

Ron Webb wrote: If you are starting from the assumption that the purpose of science is to "appreciate the grandeur of the creator", then you are not doing science at all.

No such assumptions, Quran among its many miraculous characteristics has a number of scientific references beyond its time and science as a mere human tool should be looked at as a facilitating tool for man to appreciate the creator along with these references.

Ron Webb wrote: No scientist would ever claim that we "know it all". Only religion could be that arrogant.

Good that we are on same page on science,but often people come up with this illusion that anything and everything should be testified by science for them to accept it, I am happy you accept it is not the case.Islam is not arrogant on this, it teaches man to accept his limitation and looks up to Allah as the only �know it all�.

Ron Webb wrote: Whereas religion is like a fish claiming the existence of a magical ocean where they will live blissfully forever after their deaths.The scientist fish, on the other hand, would respond something like, "Well, we have no direct evidence one way or the other about this hypothetical ocean; but if it did exist, there is no reason to suppose that it is anything like what your religion describes, nor is there any evidence that we would go there after our deaths. Moreover, if we did, our best cosmological models suggest that such an ocean would be far too salty for us to live; and if there were other creatures there, at least some of them would be a million times bigger than us and would probably gobble us up without even noticing."Which fish would be closer to the truth? .

And there it is not up to this religious fish to convince the scientist fish because the limited free will to make a choice is already given by Allah and he leaves the scientist fishes to wander in its uncertainties with ifs, buts, probabilities and models till the day of resurrection.
An - Naba: 78: 39-40: That is the True Day. So whoso will should seek recourse unto his Lord. (39) Lo! We warn you of a doom at hand, a day whereon a man will look on that which his own hands have sent before, and the disbeliever will cry: "Would that I were dust!" (40)

Ron Webb wrote: You're right. There will always be plenty of stuff we can't explain. I can't explain it, and neither can you. The difference is that I am humble enough to admit I can't explain it. I don't feel any need to make up nonsense to cover up my ignorance. You talk later about "man's pride", but you have it backwards. The prideful thing is to claim knowledge of things that you cannot possibly know.

Even I don�t make the claim of explaining it all and going a step further I use my senses to appreciate the ultimate creator whose numerous signs are around us including the unity of design in this universe and above all the Quran- a book full of wisdom:

Al-Baqara: 2: 2-7: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4) These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful. (5) As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. (7)

Quranexplorer, if you are incapable of seeing the human qualities in these verses, then I am incapable of helping you. Of course I already knew that as you simply repeat the same verses again and again in the hope that this will somehow make it all true.

Quranexplorer wrote: No such assumptions, Quran among its many miraculous characteristics has a number of scientific references beyond its time and science as a mere human tool should be looked at as a facilitating tool for man to appreciate the creator along with these references.

Yes, I've seen most of those "scientific references".  They are either intuitively obvious or laughably vague.  But again, you're starting from the assumption that the Quran is the truth, and you're trying to use science to prove it.  That's backwards.

Islam is not arrogant on this, it teaches man to accept his limitation and looks up to Allah as the only �know it all�.

If you asked me how life first came into existence, I would start by saying frankly "I don't know."  I might then offer some speculations based on what little we do know about evolution, biochemistry, etc., but I would be very clear that these are just speculation.

If I asked you, on the other hand, you would tell me that God created it.  You would state that opinion as a fact, quite confidently and unequivocally, despite having no evidence to back it up (beyond its having been written down in a book, whose authenticity you have no evidence for).

That, in a nutshell, is the difference.  When I don't know something, I say "I don't know."  When theists don't know something, they say "God did it."
 

And there it is not up to this religious fish to convince the scientist fish because the limited free will to make a choice is already given by Allah and he leaves the scientist fishes to wander in its uncertainties with ifs, buts, probabilities and models till the day of resurrection.

You totally missed the point.  The "religious fish" is wrong.  He just made up a story because it sounded comforting, but it was nothing more than a fantasy.  Just like yours, and just as wrong.
 

Al-Baqara: 2: 2-7: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4) These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful. (5) As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. (7)

This is your "loving" God, who deliberately blinds his creatures to the (alleged) truth and then punishes them for not believing it.