Hmmmmm!

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   Salaam Alaykum
I am sorry that I may have been misunderstood, but my question was specific as to whom the Prophet appointed as the head of the expedition to Tabuk from among the other Muslims (except Ali of course, since he had stayed in Madeenah). I am not asking which was more important or less important at this point. So Insha Allah if the members Ali Zaki or Abu Hadi could shed some light on the answer to this specific question, it would be good...

Edited by jello

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jello Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 27 April 2005 Location: Saudi Arabia Status: Offline Points: 37	Post Options Post Reply Quote jello Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 May 2005 at 11:08am
	Salaam Alaykum I am sorry that I may have been misunderstood, but my question was specific as to whom the Prophet appointed as the head of the expedition to Tabuk from among the other Muslims (except Ali of course, since he had stayed in Madeenah). I am not asking which was more important or less important at this point. So Insha Allah if the members Ali Zaki or Abu Hadi could shed some light on the answer to this specific question, it would be good... Edited by jello

Ali Zaki Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217	Post Options Post Reply Quote Ali Zaki Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 May 2005 at 6:39am
	Salam ala kum, One more hadith about Tabuk (and the reason for leaving Imam Ali (a.s.) behind in Medina) The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s) told Ali (a.s.), "Are you not satisfied that you are having the same position to me as Haroon (a.s.) was having with Musa (a.s.) except that there is no prophet after me. It is not possible that I go away without leaving you as my successor." (Seerah Ibne Hisham, Vol III, Pg. 520) This shows that the reason that the Prophet (a.s.) left Ali (a.s.) behind was to act as his deputy in his absence. This (as well as many other) examples clearly establish that the prophet APPOINTED his representatives and did not leave it to the Muslims to decide. There are many clear reasons for this, which can be explored later if appropriate. I have a question for you. The Sunni position is that the mechanism of shura (mutual consoltation) was the established practice of the Prophet, i.e., the Prophet told his companions to mutually consult eachother in regards to decisions of leadership and successorship. Can you give some examples of this from the Sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)? A follow up question is that if you can establish (using the Sunnah) that shura is appropriate, then why did Abu Bakr APPOINT Omar as the second kaliph? Salam
	"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.)

Abu Hadi Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 13 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 29	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abu Hadi Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 May 2005 at 2:55am
	Salams to jello, Ali Zaki , and others It has been a while since my last post. I have been ill the past week, but InshahAllah, I am feeling better now. In regards to Tabuk, I am familiar with the basic incidents of this expeditions. Basically, some hypocrites who lived in the region of Tabuk set up a mosque and invited Imam Ali to come and pray there. The Holy Prophet sent an expedition to deal with these people and destroy the mosque. Here are some sources I found http://al-islam.org/restatement/34.htm This is from a post I found on this site The Prophet left `Ali behind in the campaign of Tabuk. The latter said: "O Messenger of Allah! Are you leaving me behind with the women and children?" The Prophet replied: "Are you not happy to stand next to me like Harun next to Musa, save that there is no Prophet after me?" The Prophet said: "I am the city of knowledge and `Ali is its gate." Another version states: "I am the house of wisdom and `Ali is its gate." *Main sources: Abu Nu`aym, Hilya al-Awliya�* 1:100-128 #4; al-Dhahabi, Siyar A`lam al-Nubala� 1/2:615-660 #5. I guess your question is, "Why did the Prophet leave Imam Ali(a.s.) behind when he had been at the prophet's side during all the previous military expeditions?" If you look at the link from al-islam.org, it give a good and reasonable explaination as to the "why" of this. Basically, the reason is because all of the men had been called up to fight in this campaign and the Prophet(p.b.u.h) needed someone to guard the city and act as the leader of the capital of the Muslims (Medina) in his absence. This is from Sir John Glubb (a western historian)** The Prophet appointed Ali ibn Abi Talib his viceroy in Medina during his own absence. He selected Ali to be his viceroy for the following reasons: 1. He wanted to show to the rest of the world that he considered Ali to be more qualified than anyone else to be the ruler of all Muslims, and to be the head of the Islamic State. He, therefore, appointed him as his representative in his capital. 2. All fighting men were going with the expedition, leavingMedina without any troops. In the event of an attack upon the city by the nomadic predators, Ali could be counted upon to handle the situation by dint of his courage and ability. 3. Many hypocrites had stayed behind in Medina, and many others had deserted the army to return to the city. They were a potential threat to the security of the capital of Islam. The Prophet, therefore, selected a man to rule in his place who was capable of defending Medina against any pagan advance, either by external aggression or through internal subversion. with Salams, Edited by Abu Hadi

jello Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 27 April 2005 Location: Saudi Arabia Status: Offline Points: 37	Post Options Post Reply Quote jello Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 May 2005 at 12:32am
	Salaam Alaykum again, I wanted to ask, besides the Tabuk appointment question, about the Prophet's speech at Arafat in his final Hajj... Any Shia sources specifying what the Prophet said on the 9th of Dhul-Hijja at Arafat ?

Ali Zaki Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217	Post Options Post Reply Quote Ali Zaki Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 May 2005 at 5:42am
	Salam ala kum to Jello, Abu Hadi, Abdullah and others. Again, I wish to assure those who are following this discussion that it is my sincere intention (Inshahallah) to carry this discussion forward. If, by the grace of Allah (s.w.a.) I am still in this world tommorrow, I will continue with my next posting. Thank you for your understanding. Salam.
	"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.)

abdallah Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Starter Joined: 22 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2	Post Options Post Reply Quote abdallah Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 May 2005 at 5:59pm
	Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds; Salams Jello, Abu hadi and Ali Zaki Alhamdoillah , I have been observing this scholarly discussion about the Appointments by Holy prophet (PBUH) . Please keep up the good work. wassalam Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds;

jello Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 27 April 2005 Location: Saudi Arabia Status: Offline Points: 37	Post Options Post Reply Quote jello Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 May 2005 at 12:47pm
	Salaam Alaykum In view of the current situation that Ali Zaki will be unavailable for some time, I would like to simply leave Abu Hadi (or whichever other Shia knows of this) to answer the following question that I had asked before, concerning the Prophet's appointments: Who did the Prophet (SAW) appoint as the leader for the Tabuk expedition ? Of course, during this time I will go through the posts as much as I can, and trying to see what is relevant, etc. so that I can reply appropriately, Insha Allah.

Ali Zaki Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217	Post Options Post Reply Quote Ali Zaki Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 May 2005 at 9:02am
	Salam Jello. By the way, I would like to say, in advance, that I may not be able to respond to your further postings for a few days because I am in Graduate School (California State University, Fullerton), and I will be having final exams for the rest of this month (May). I say this so that you will not wonder about the delay, as I am very much enjoying our discussion and (inshahAllah) we will continue with it. RE: The Declaration of Surat Al-Taubah you said, "I am not sure how there can be an exact privilege for Ali based on the first part of the Hadeeth" I do not claim that this denotes anything other than the clear statement of the Prophet (a.s.). The Quran was revealed to the heart of the most noble messenger at once (on Laylat Al-Qadr), and he was commanded to recite the relevent portion of the Quran at the appropriate time. If you memorize the Websters Dictonary and recite the exact definition of a word when the word occurs in coversation, the words are yours, however, the SOURCE of the information is not yourself. So the difference between Hadith of the prophet (a.s.) and the Quran is the source of the information. One is a specific book that was "sent down" on a certain, particular night(i.e. the Quran), and the other are revelations sent to the heart of the messenger that are not part of this book, or given through the angel Gibrail. We know, however, that whether or not the "words" of the prophet are Quran or Hadith the source is the same (i.e. Allah (s.w.a.)) and the method of conveyance is the same, words. Therefore, it does not matter if the words are Quran or Hadith, the decleration still applies. The Quraanic words "salat", "zakat", "siyam", and "hajj" appear many more times than the word "Imaam" or any other similar terminology. Also, the explanation provided in the Quraan itself about these aspects is much more lenghty than it is about "Imaamah", even though one would would expect it to be the other way around if Shiism was indeed being taught by Allah in the Quraan. The purpose of the Quran is not to teach "Shiism", The role of the 12 Imams (Shiism) is to teach the Quran. The foundation of Islam is the Quran, however, The Quran cannot be properly understood and applied without the guidance of the Prophet (a.s.) and the Ahl'al Bayt, as testified in the hadith of Thaqanayn. " I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it." Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah . Then he said, "And my Ahl alBayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt"'" .... (Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada'il alSahabah [Maktabat wa Matba`at Muhammad `Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.) There are other, more clear versions of this hadith (which you are probably familiar with. I quoted this version because it is in Sahiah Muslim, and is easy to verify. According to some of the Shia Ahadeeth, Imaamah is much more important that all these other issues. To say that Imaamah is more important than acts of Ibadah (worship) is not correct, and is not the Shia position. However, if one wants to practice Islam correctly, the words of the prophet must be obeyed. I have included this well known hadith, as well as a relevent explanation which is better then what I could come up with. "I found the word Bab and its plural Abwaab mentioned in the Quran 27 times. in most instances, it refers to the proper way of entering into a place with permission (2:58); a place of destiny (40:76) and a passage of blessings (39:73). Symbolically, a bab is the proper way to reach you desired destination. For example, in the famous tradition of the Holy Prophet (S) he said: "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate (Bab)." Meaning that if you would like to acquire the Prophet's knowledge, the proper way is through Imam Ali (AS)." SOURCE: http://al-islam.org/organizations/aalimnetwork/msg00593.html Salam
	"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.)