In Matthew chapter 17 verses 21 is missing from th

iec[/QUOTE]Greetings iec,I really do not believe it will matter to the Creator if man is circumcised in the flesh or not.� I believe the command is given for the purposes of hygiene and protection, as are most of the laws in the old testament.i.e., I think the same is the reason for the prohibition of pork... or the eating of meat from the animal with a cloven hoof.� We have since learned through science how deadly pork can be.and the washing also, is it not for our protection?Salaam,Caringheart [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />[/QUOTE]


Hi Caringheart,

I really do not believe it will matter to the Creator if man is circumcised in the flesh or not.

My dear Caringheart it is easy for you to dismiss it as oh well God will not mind.Let us see what the Bible says.

13Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.�

An everlasting covenant.I hope all in your household are circumcised or else they should be killed according to the Bible.

Ismail

...blasphemy at it's best. And it also reminds me of the verses that totally contradict to what you wrote above.

These words are also by the way are in the same Bible:
"And He said unto him, �Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God. But if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the commandments.� Matt 19:17
"And Jesus said unto him, �Why callest thou Me good? None is good save One, that is, God." Luke 18:19
"Jesus said unto her, �Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say unto them, �I ascend unto My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.�� John 20:17
"for My Father is greater than I" John 14:28
Just wanted to remind you of the contradictions of your source.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 26 December 2013 at 5:45pm

Greetings Ismael,

I still have yet to have any muslim tell me what it is that they find objectionable in Paul's teaching.

Do you really think it is going to matter to the Creator about a piece of flesh and whether or not it has been cut off of the man's private part?
Or does it make more sense that it will matter what is in his heart and in his behavior... what are the fruits of his life? (this is what Yshwe was trying to teach... that binding laws about the necks of people to drag them down does nothing to gain them entrance to the kingdom of God)
Are you willing to believe that if a man has followed God in every way except for circumcision of his penis he will denied a place with his Creator?
Can you not see that the reason for this command of God has little to do with man's entry into the kingdom of God?  It may have served an early purpose for the Jews...
but can you not see that there are much more important things to the determining of whether a man merit's the kingdom of God or not?  (this is what Yshwe was trying to open the eyes of those who would, to see... it is this that Paul was reinforcing)
I am always being told that islam teaches to use logic of the mind God has given.

Salaam,
Caringheart

iec786 wrote:

Greetings Ismael,

Let me begin by saying, sorry for the length of this reply, but I felt all that is included was necessary.  I hope you will take time to read and consider it all, as I gave much consideration and time to your reply.


Paul taught the same as Yshwe was teaching.

Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


He(Paul) did it(taught) with the blessing and approval of all of Yshwe's Apostles.

Acts of the apostles, chapter 15

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, �Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.� 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, �It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.�

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them:

�Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.�

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, �Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 �After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.�

18 �Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.�

22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, �You must be circumcised and keep the law� �to whom we gave no such commandment� 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

30 So when they were sent off, they came to Antioch; and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. 31 When they had read it, they rejoiced over its encouragement. 32 Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words. 33 And after they had stayed there for a time, they were sent back with greetings from the brethren to the apostles.


If the very Apostle's of Yshwe accepted Paul, who of any of us has higher wisdom, or authority, to reject him?

Why do muslims always ignore the new covenant of God which was declared before its time?

16 Thus saith the Lord, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters;

17 Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.

18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.
21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel.

23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
These are doctrines of men that do not serve the Lord.

24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.

25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.
By teaching doctrines of men.

Yshwe taught the doctrines of the Lord... that it is what is in the heart that matters.

39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.


Proverbs 4 of the old testament teaching;
19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
20 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Yshwe came to establish the good teachings of the Lord... to fulfill all that was, and is, in the old testament.

"Abraham and his children were commanded to be circumcised as a "sign of covenant" between them and God (Gen. 17:10-11)."

Yes, Abraham and his children... but not the gentiles... they are not descendants of Abraham, are they?

"If all the Prophets were circumcised then should we circumcise or not?"

Are we prophets?  I suppose it could be said that if you are a descendant of Abraham, perhaps then it is correct for muslims as well as Jews... but not for gentiles.
The circumcision did, at one time, set apart the Jews from the rest of the people, but not so true today, is it?  This is not what sets one mans heart apart from another today, does it?

I see that Yshwe came to correct men's thinking, and to illuminate the minds, to see that it is what is in the heart that matters... not the flesh.

Salaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 03 January 2014 at 11:55pm