In Matthew chapter 17 verses 21 is missing from th

iec786 wrote: Hi Carringheart,wow that was three times my post have mercy. that was long.

Greetings Ismail,

- I warned you.  Thanks for making me laugh.
but you did hit me with two very long replies of your own.

Regarding;
"Christianity is the only religion that recognizes the hopeless gap between man and a Holy and Righteous God, teaching that salvation can only be obtained through God's grace."

and your reply;
"If you repent you will be forgiven without Christ."

I have never disagreed with this.  I only say that for many it is through the sacrifice made by the Creator, through the Son, Yshwe, that many are led to repentance.
It is by the recognition of this great sacrifice that many come to love God.
for 'what greater gift is there but that one should lay down his life for another'?
and who would 'trample underfoot, the blood of the one who made the sacrifice for you'?

It is for this reason I also included the explanation of grace...
Grace is charis and means, "Divine influence on the heart and its reflection in one's life."

Thus, 'saved by grace'... by charis... means saved by 'Divine influence on the heart and its reflection in one's life'....
i.e., repentance.

Without Christ... without Love of God, and for God, people will not repent...  they may try to follow rules, but they will always end up breaking the rules, because they are human, and the flesh is weak, born through sin... this is why we need the gift of Christ... Christ who strengthens us, Christ who comes to live in us.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.'

Salaam and blessings,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 13 January 2014 at 3:05pm

Caringheart wrote: "Jesus never talked about atonement or a "free-ride" through the blood of an innocent man." The atonement was long known in Judaic history... as a means and a pathway to God.the 'scape goat' required by God (Leviticus 16)Abram instructed to sacrifice his son.'There is much yet to be accomplished that you do not understand'How can Jesus pay for us?Why can He not, if He chooses to?Would we then refuse the gift?� Would we reject one who has been gracious enough to pay our debt for us?� How insulting and ungrateful would that be?� If I were to offer myself to God in your place, does God not have the right and the authority to accept this?� And if he accepts my offer as release of your debt, are you one to argue with God about whether or not He can do this?It is like this...If you were to be brought before the judge to pay your debts, and the judge were to turn to you and say you are free to go, there was one here before you and he has paid your debt.� Can you argue with the judge?"Christianity is the only religion that recognizes the hopeless gap between man and a Holy and Righteous God, teaching that salvation can only be obtained through God's grace."Human effort can not get us there.� We will always be flawed and imperfect.� The only perfection comes through Christ.

Still singing the same old song Caringheart?
How many times we have gone over the contradictions in your theory and the source of that theory.
Matt 12: 36 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment"
Matt 5:30 "And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
Deut 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Here again this verse also says otherwise:
Mark 3:28 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

So, the only thing clear is that no one is paying for no one with nothing. No one can pay for anyone's sins. And that it is God's forgiveness, not blood, gold or wealth that will achieve forgiveness and thus salvation.

The reason that your theory of Jesus paying for sins of others with his blood using Bible as it's source, it is obvious with our study of the Bible that it is inconsistent within itself. And that is not because it is not from God, rather it has been tempered with by men and so it contradicts your claim.
God knowing this (that people will alter His word)has blessed us with His pure message again, the Quran.
The Quran says: 25:70 "Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Choice is your's after knowledge has reached you.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 08 January 2014 at 2:25pm

(continued...)

Re:  1 Corinthians 10:25
 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

3 Jesus replied,
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 ��These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are merely human rules.��

10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, �Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone�s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.�
(as recorded in the book of Matthew, chapter 15, and the book of Mark, chapter 7)

Paul was teaching nothing different than Yshwe Himself.

Anyway the notes in the scriptures realating to the passage of 1 Corinthians 10:25 read as follows;
first the verse is;
25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
and the notes are;
sold in the shambles - this passage refers not to the dietary food laws of the old testament, but to food sacrificed to idols and later sold in the meat markets.


and if you'd like to understand the fullness of what Paul was saying...

24 Don�t be concerned for your own good but for the good of others.

25 So you may eat any meat that is sold in the marketplace without raising questions of conscience. 26 For �the earth is the Lord�s, and everything in it.�

27 If someone who isn�t a believer asks you home for dinner, accept the invitation if you want to. Eat whatever is offered to you without raising questions of conscience. 28 (But suppose someone tells you, �This meat was offered to an idol.� Don�t eat it, out of consideration for the conscience of the one who told you. 29 It might not be a matter of conscience for you, but it is for the other person.) For why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks? 30 If I can thank God for the food and enjoy it, why should I be condemned for eating it?

31 So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Don�t give offense to Jews or Gentiles or the church of God. 33 I, too, try to please everyone in everything I do. I don�t just do what is best for me; I do what is best for others so that many may be saved.

Edited by Caringheart - 07 January 2014 at 4:38pm

Hi iec,

Quote concerning Paul:
1Paul lied when he told the world that he was an apostle, (Question 1 of four, from the middle of psge 4)


Response: --- How little you know , or believe.
The word for Apostle in the Greek means, �One sent forth.� --- And when Paul had the vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus, this was the conversation between Jesus and the disciple at Damascus in Acts 9:
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, �Ananias.� --- And he said, �Here I am, Lord.�
11 So the Lord said to him, �Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying.
12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.�
13 Then Ananias answered, �Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.
14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.�
15 But the Lord said to him, �Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name�s sake.�
17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, �Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.�
18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

Paul was converted and the Lord said in verse 15, �He is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.�
--- That is exactly what he did, being guided by the Holy Spirit.

At a later date, this happened in Acts 22:
17 �Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance
18 and saw Him saying to me, �Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.�
19 So I said, �Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You.
20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.�
21 Then He said to me, �Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.��
--- So here Paul was sent again to be the Apostle to the Gentiles.

--- If you don�t want to believe it, that is up to you, but this is where Paul was chosen and sent as an Apostle to the Gentiles, before Kings and to Rome to appear before Caesar, however there is no evidence that Caesar ever called for him, so he continued preaching and teaching in Rome.

Placid