Bukhari hadiths #431 and #30

islamispeace wrote: TG12345 wrote: islamispeace wrote: Hadith #532 has to do with the temporary punishment the believers will face for any sins they did not repent for or were not forgiven.  Through the intercession of Muhammad (pbuh), they will be brought out of Hell after serving their time, however long Allah (swt) willed that was to be. This also does not contradict the hadith #431 because merely saying the Shahadah does not excuse a Muslim from his/her other religious duties, such as prayer, fasting and charity.  There is a similar hadith in Sahih Muslim which clarifies this point: "It is reported on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Prophet of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) addressed Mu'adh b. Jabal as he was riding behind him to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. He again called out: Mu'adh, to which he (again) replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure. He (the Holy Prophet) addressed him (again): Mu'adh, to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) observed: If anyone testifies (sincerely from his heart) that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His bondsman and His messenger, Allah immuned him from hell. He (Mu'adh) said: Messenger of Allah, should I not then inform people of it, so that they may be of good cheer? He replied: Then they would trust in it alone. Mu'adh told about it at the time of his death, to avoid sinning."  (Book #001, Hadith #0051) So, this hadith clarifies the one in Sahih Bukhari that just saying the Shahadah would guarantee Paradise, but it would not exempt a Muslim from all other responsibilities that is required of him/her.  The newer Muslims in the time of the Prophet could have misinterpreted this hadith and thought that they did not need to do anything else.  In fact, when the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told this to Mu'adh (the narrator of this hadith), he asked him to not tell the people just yet.  Hence, Mu'adh waited until he was on his deathbed to do.  As Abdul Hamid Siddiqi states in his translation of Sahih Muslim: "Affirmation in the oneness of God, without associating anything with Him, is certainly the golden rule to enter heavens [Paradise], but it entails heavy responsibility which the new converts could not fully appreciate and understand at that stage." (Volume 1, p. 25) Therefore, there is no contradiction.  Saying the Shahadah sincerely will guarantee Paradise, but without good deeds or an overabundance of bad deeds, there may be temporary punishment in Hell, if Allah (swt) wills it.  Allah (swt) knows best. Assalamu Alaikum, Islamispeace. Thank you for sharing the hadith, and I agree with you, Islam does not teach that saying the shahadah will mean that a person will not enter hell temporarily for sins committed if s/he was a Muslim, or eternally if s/he died outside of the faith. However, hadith #431 does not say that a Muslim who says shahadah sincerely (and dies in that state of faith) will merely enter heaven... it states that hellfire will be forbidden to that person. (7) Narrated 'Utban bin Malik Al-Ansari: who was one of the men of the tribe of Bani Salim: Allah's Apostle came to me and said, "If anybody comes on the Day of Resurrection who has said: La ilaha illal-lah, sincerely, with the intention to win Allah's Pleasure, Allah will make the hell-Fire forbidden for him." (Book #76, Hadith #431)  I'm really not trying to be rude or insulting, but if God says He will make hell-fire forbidden for someone on the Day of Resurrection, how would he or she be able to get past Him and enter it? If in Hadith #431, Muhammad stated that those who say the first part of the shahadah with sincerity will enter Paradise, we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, he stated that God will make hell-fire forbidden for them. Yet as you earlier pointed out, there will be some Muslims who will enter hell and burned by the fire. Allah knows best. Blessed be His holy Name. You have completely ignored the hadith from Sahih Muslim which clarifies the point.  Why do you think the Prophet went out of his way to say: "Then they would trust in it alone"? The implication is that accepting the Shahadah carries with it the duties and responsibilities that are mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah, such as prayer, fasting and charity.  Neglecting these duties or thinking that they are not required would be tantamount to apostasy.  For example, the Prophet said that neglecting the daily prayers was a form of kufr.  Therefore, just stating the Shahadah would not be enough.  The Prophet did not want people to take his statement literally that saying the Shahadah sincerely was enough to go to Paradise.  They still had to carry out the duties that are required of every Muslim. As Muslims, we follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), who was himself taught by Allah (swt) through the angel Gabriel (as).  Muhammad (pbuh) clearly implied that stating the Shahadah was not enough, by his statement "...they would trust in it alone."  Therefore, your argument that there is a contradiction based solely on your reliance on hadith #532, while ignoring other hadiths which clarify the point, is erroneous.  Your claims are easily outweighed by the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh).

Assalamu Alaikum Islamispeace,

I have read the hadith, but it does not say that those who say the shahadah sincerely and are Muslims but still do not live out their faith will go to hell for a while. Muhammad said ": If anyone testifies (sincerely from his heart) that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His bondsman and His messenger, Allah immuned him from hell. " Mu'adh wanted to tell this to the people so they could be of good cheer, but Muhammad told him not to, so people wouldn't trust in it alone. He said nothing about hellfire, except that if someone said the shahadah, he or she would be immune from hell.

Not going to hell does not mean one will escape punishment from God. As a Christian, I am saved in Christ but I don't go around sinning. Even if my faith means I will avoid hell, it does not mean that I will not be punished for my sins at the end of my life by God. We will all face judgement, and even Christians who will not wind up in hell will still be punished for the wrong things we did.

"It is reported on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Prophet of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) addressed Mu'adh b. Jabal as he was riding behind him to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. He again called out: Mu'adh, to which he (again) replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure. He (the Holy Prophet) addressed him (again): Mu'adh, to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) observed: If anyone testifies (sincerely from his heart) that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His bondsman and His messenger, Allah immuned him from hell. He (Mu'adh) said: Messenger of Allah, should I not then inform people of it, so that they may be of good cheer? He replied: Then they would trust in it alone. Mu'adh told about it at the time of his death, to avoid sinning."  (Book #001, Hadith #0051)

On one hand, Muhammad said that those who say the shahadah will be immune from hellfire, and that God will forbid it for them. This includes every Muslim on the planet, sinful or less sinful.

On the other hand, he stated that the sinful Muslims will go to hell for a time.

So either the shahadah does not in fact mean that anyone who says it and believes it and dies a Muslim will avoid hellfire, or Muslims will not enter hell- since everyone who is a Muslim has said the Shahadah.

I am afraid that the contradiction still remains.

Allah Akhbar!

islamispeace wrote: You are "afraid that the contradiction still remains" because you want there to be a contradiction.  Fortunately, there is no contradiction as I already showed.  Since the hadith narrated by Mu'adh states plainly that people should not rely only on accepting the Shahadah as a gateway to Paradise and also says that they should avoid sins, the implication is that a Muslim needs to do everything that God requires.  Neglecting the requirements means that your "acceptance" of the Shahadah is not sincere.  This was all stated in the same hadith where he said that hell would be forbidden to the one who says the Shahadah sincerely!  Obviously, Muhammad (pbuh) would not have contradicted himself just 10 seconds after saying it.  Therefore, the meaning is not as you see it.  As I said, we follow the Prophet and he clearly taught what I have shown.  If you had done a little better research, you would have realized the facts.  Look at it this way. You were "sure" there was a contradiction between #431 and #30, only to realize later that there was no contradiction.  Then, you claimed there was a contradiction between #431 and #532, only to realize that #431 has been clarified by other hadiths found in Sahih Muslim, which you were not even aware of.  You are looking for a contradiction, plain and simple.  I once told a non-Muslim that if you go looking into the Quran for the location of Atlantis, then you will find it, even though there is nothing in the Quran about Atlantis.  Subjective analysis will always lead one to find what they are looking for, whether it is a contradiction or the location of Atlantis.

Assalamu Alaikum, Islamispeace.

I'm not going around and looking for contradictions. I obviously don't believe Islam is true, and have never hidden that, or my purpose in dialogue and debates with Muslims.

When I am proven wrong, however, I admit it, as I did previously in this post.

Furthermore, I have defended the Quran in its correct statement about the expanding of the universe
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25646&PN=3
and on Christian Forums I
as well as refuted statements that Muslims contributed nothing to science since the 13th century
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25470&PN=2

Had my purpose been only to find problems and contradictions, and not listen to or consider alternate explanations or admit I could be wrong, I would be posting on CARM or writing material for "answering islam" or "wikiislam" or other garbage like that. I certainly wouldn't be on here, or debating with you outside of this forum. I certainly wouldn't have conceded I was in error to you and everyone else reading our conversation.

Having said this, let's return to your argument:

Since the hadith narrated by Mu'adh states plainly that people should not rely only on accepting the Shahadah as a gateway to Paradise and also says that they should avoid sins, the implication is that a Muslim needs to do everything that God requires.  Neglecting the requirements means that your "acceptance" of the Shahadah is not sincere.  This was all stated in the same hadith where he said that hell would be forbidden to the one who says the Shahadah sincerely!  Obviously, Muhammad (pbuh) would not have contradicted himself just 10 seconds after saying it.  Therefore, the meaning is not as you see it.  As I said, we follow the Prophet and he clearly taught what I have shown.  If you had done a little better research, you would have realized the facts. 

I am not alleging that Muhammad stated that saying the Shahadah sincerely is a gateway to Paradise. I am alleging he stated that a person who states it with sincerity, will not go to hell. Saying that those who say it sincerely will not go to hell conflicts with him saying later (or earlier) that some Muslims who were disobedient will go to hell for a while.

You said also that neglecting requirements would mean that a person's "acceptance" of the Shahadah is insincere. If a person says the Shahadah insincerely, is he or she a Muslim to begin with? Can the shahada be accepted insincerely and still count in making a person a Muslim? If the answer is yes, then I could see the possibility that there is no contradiction.

I am assuming there is a contradiction, like I assumed earlier. Earlier, you showed me I was wrong. I accepted this, and refuted my statement in front of everyone. If you can prove I am wrong, I will do the same.

Allah Akhbar. Blessed be His Name.


Edited by TG12345 - 11 August 2013 at 5:53pm

Assalamu Alaikum.

islamispeace wrote: Only Allah (swt) knows if a Muslim is "sincere", whether it is with regard to the Shahadah or to any of the requirements of Islam, such as prayer.  It is not up to humans to determine if someone is sincere.

OK, no problems here.

islamispeace wrote: Getting back to the matter at hand, the fact is that you relied on a specific hadith without doing sufficient research as to its background.  The hadith I showed clarifies the statement that accepting the Shahadah will protect a person from hell.

Except this isn't what Muhammad said. Muhammad said that anyone who says the shahadah is protected from hellfire. Interestingly, after saying this, according to the hadith, when Mu'adh wanted to tell others so they could be of good cheer, Muhammad told him "then they would trust in it alone".

If Muhammad knew that his saying about the shahadah would be misunderstood by people other than his companion, why would he say it to begin with? Why not state that if anyone says the shahadah sincerely, as long as s/he remains a Muslim until death, will go to Paradise?

 According to your faith, that would be true. You believe that Muslims will go to Paradise after they die, even if they go to hell for a while. It would have been completely accurate and true to say that anyone who says the Shahadah sincerely will go to Paradise.

In fact, he did say that, here:

(5) Abu Dharr reported,: I came to the Apostle (may peace be upon him ) and he was asleep with a white mantle over him. I again came, he was still asleep, I came again and he had awakened. I sat by his side and (the Holy Prophet) observed: There is none among the bondsmen who affirmed his faith in La illaha ill-Allah there is no god but Allah) and died in this state and did not enter paradise. I (Abu Dharr) said: Even if he committed adultery and theft? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: (Yes) even though he committed adultery and theft. I (again said): Even if he committed adultery and theft? He replied: (Yes) even though he committed adultery and theft. (Th Holy Prophet repeated it three times) and said for the fourth time: In defiance of Abu Dharr. Abu Dharr then went out and he repeated (these words): In defiance of Abu Dharr.  (Book #001, Hadith #0172)
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=paradise+no+god+but&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all


Making the statement that everyone who says the Shahadah sincerely will go to Paradise is true.

Saying that anyone who says it sincerely will not go to hell is false, especially if he later said that some Muslims will indeed spend time in hell.

"It is reported on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Prophet of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) addressed Mu'adh b. Jabal as he was riding behind him to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. He again called out: Mu'adh, to which he (again) replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure. He (the Holy Prophet) addressed him (again): Mu'adh, to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) observed: If anyone testifies (sincerely from his heart) that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His bondsman and His messenger, Allah immuned him from hell. He (Mu'adh) said: Messenger of Allah, should I not then inform people of it, so that they may be of good cheer? He replied: Then they would trust in it alone. Mu'adh told about it at the time of his death, to avoid sinning."  (Book #001, Hadith #0051)

Furthermore, Muhammad did not only tell Mu'adh about hell being immuned from those who said the Shahadah, he also told it to Utban bin Malik Al-Ansari.

(7) Narrated 'Utban bin Malik Al-Ansari: who was one of the men of the tribe of Bani Salim: Allah's Apostle came to me and said, "If anybody comes on the Day of Resurrection who has said: La ilaha illal-lah, sincerely, with the intention to win Allah's Pleasure, Allah will make the hell-Fire forbidden for him."  (Book #76, Hadith #431)

Interestingly, he didn't confirm, to the best of my knowledge (and if I am wrong, please show me where), as he did with Mu'adh, that it's not enough to just say that to not enter hell.

islamispeace wrote: This statement is true, but as the Prophet clarified immediately after saying it, Muslims should not trust in it alone.

If the statement needs to be clarified, then in by itself as it is, it is not true.

If Muslims need to do more than say the Shahadah (which is what your faith teaches), then it is not true that anyone who says it sincerely will enter Paradise.

islamispeace wrote:   In other words, accepting the Shahadah means fulfilling the other requirements.  Allah (swt) has commanded Muslims to pray five times a day, to fast, to give charity, to honor our parents etc., and has told us to obey His prophet.  Therefore, neglecting any of these commands would contradict the Shahadah itself, since how can a Muslim believe in the One God and His final prophet while neglecting His commands?

If neglecting the commands you described means that a person does not accept the Shahadah, would it not mean that he or she is no longer a Muslim? And if he or she is no longer a Muslim, would they not be banned from Paradise at all?

If Muhammad said that those who say the Shahadah sincerely will not taste hellfire but not obeying the commands means that one has not accepted the Shahadah, it would mean that the person has not accepted Islam. As non-believers, they would neither be promised that they will never enter hell, or be described in other hadiths as being taken out.

The contradiction still stands. Either it is true that anyone who says the Shahadah sincerely will not be touched by hellfire, or it is true that some who say it sincerely will go to hell for a while. They can't both be true.

islamispeace wrote: You have failed to explain why the Prophet would make the statement about the Shahadah and then a few sentences later explain that no one should rely on it alone.

Perhaps because like Christianity, Islam teaches that it is not good to sin and God will punish you if you do, even if that does not mean one goes to hell.

Stating that saying the Shahadah will ensure that anyone who does so will not be touched by hellfire is not true. Muhammad did not tell Mu'adh why people should not rely on the Shahadah alone, especially since seconds ago he told him that anyone who says it will indeed be spared from hell. If he needed to clarify what he said, then the original statement is not true.

Of course, I am not going to attack him or condemn him for that. I have had to retract my words and clarify and correct myself many times and continue to do so, so that Muhammad had to do it also sometimes isn't a surprise.

However, it would suggest that God didn't tell him that saying the Shahadah will mean that everyone who says it will not be touched by hell.
In order for that statement to be true, it is necessary to qualify it with adding that one can't trust in Shahadah alone.

islamispeace wrote:   You just keep claiming there is a contradiction!  How is it a contradiction?!

Hopefully that made it more clear.