Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud

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 Caringheart wrote:

Greetings TG,

Hello, Caringheart! Long time no talk.

 Caringheart wrote:

On another forum someone made the statement:
"How about this, go find another "error or contradiction in the quran". If you think there is one, there must be more than, its only rational. If one makes a simple mistake, then for sure there are others."
I shared the link to this discussion.  This is their refutation.  What response you would give?
Here is the supposed 'contradiction' ? 

The buildings that Muhammad and his men came across were not built by the Thamud before the time of Moses, but by the Nabateans who built it between the 1st century BC and 1st century AD. *

The Quran's claim that the buildings carved out of rock were made by the Thamud during the time of Salih is false

They were also tombs, not houses as Muhammad and the author of the Quran evidently believed

LOL these are my words, right? And the following below is the refutation? I will gladly address it.

 Caringheart wrote:

The Quran, in 7:74 doesn't say they were built by Thamud, the ayat mentions the people of 'Ad which were a different group. The OP uses the name Nabateans, which isn't in the Quran and the Quran does not give a specific time for when they lived.  

7:73, 74

 To
 the Thamud people (We sent)  Salih, one of their own  brethren: He 
said: "O my people! worship Allah:  ye have no other god but Him.  Now 
hath come unto you a clear (Sign)  from your Lord! This she-camel of 
Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her  to graze in Allah's earth, and 
let her come to no harm, or ye shall be  seized with a grievous 
punishment.

"And remember how He made you  inheritors after the 'Ad people  and gave
 you habitations in the land:  ye build for yourselves palaces and 
castles in (open) plains, and care  out homes in the mountains; so bring to remembrance the benefits (ye  have received) from Allah, and refrain from evil and mischief on the  earth."

In 7:74, Salih is addressing the Thamud, telling them how God made them the inheritors after the Ad people and gave them habitations in the land, and "you" (a reference to the Thamud) build for themselves castles and palaces and carve out homes in the mountains. Tafsirs Ibn Abbas, Al Jalalayn and Ibn Qathir all state 7:74 applies to the Thamud. 

I won't copy and paste them, but they (and the tafsirs of all the verses) can be found on www.altafsir.com and www.qtafsir.com

 Caringheart wrote:

So 7:74 is about 'Ad, not Thamud. It says 'Ad made houses on the side of mountains.

The verse makes it clear that the Thamud carved the homes out of rock. The tafsirs do also.

 Caringheart wrote:

The Quran does mention Thamud doing a similar activity in 89:9 

This ayat simply says that Thamud carved rocks in the valley. This verse doesn't use the term 'buyut', houses, 

It doesn't, but 7:74 does. 

 Caringheart wrote:

and it also doesn't give a time. So the OPs supposition that the Quran says that Thamud built houses out of rock and that these were the same structures of the Nabateans is wrong.  First, the Quran does not say Thamud built 'houses' out of rock, that was another group, the 'Ad.

7:74 states very clearly that the Thamud were the ones who built the homes out of rock.
Also, so does 

15:80-84

And  certainly  did  the  companions  of  Thamud  deny  the  messengers.
And  We  gave  them  Our  signs,  but  from  them  they  were  turning  away.
And  they  used  to  carve  from  the  mountains,  houses,  feeling  secure.
But  the  shriek  seized  them  at  early  morning.
So  nothing  availed  them  [from]  what  they  used  to  earn.

If you read any tafsir, you will notice that this was also meant as a reference to the Thamud.

So we have 2 verses where it is clearly stated that the Thamud carved their houses out of mountains.

 Caringheart wrote:

 Secondly, it doesn't give a time when Thamud 'carved rocks in the Valley'.

According to the verses we have examined, the Thamud carved their homes out of mountains before Salih warned them and they killed the She-Camel, and were as a result annihilated.

Now, let's see when Salih lived. Although the Quran does not give us specific dates (neither does the Bible), it does tell us some important chronological information. We know that according to the Quran, there was a prophet called Shuaib, who was sent to the Midianites. His story can be found in 11:84-95. His people were disobeying God, and he warned them by saying:

11:89

And  O  my  people,  let  not  
[your]  dissension  from  me  cause  you  to  be  struck  by  that 
similar  to  what  struck  the  people  of  Noah  or  the  people  of  
Hud  or  the  people  of  Salih. And  the  people  of  Lot  are  not  
from  you  far  away.

So we know that Shuaib lived after the destruction of the Thamud, since he referred to their punishment in the past tense.

Chapter 11 in the Quran provides a chronological list of some of the prophets between Noah and Moses.
11:25-50 tells the story of Noah and his people. 11:51-60 tells the story of Hud and the Ad. 11:61-68 tells the story of Salih and the Thamud. 11:69-83 tells the story of Abraham and Lot and their people. 11:84-95 tells the story of Shuayb and the Midianites. 11:96-99 tells the story of Moses and the Pharaoh.

9:70 also provides a chronological list of some of the peoples who didn't listen to their prophets.

9:70

Hath
 not the story reached them of those before them?- the People of Noah, 
and 'Ad, and Thamud; the People of Abraham, the men of Midian, and the 
cities overthrown. To them came their messengers with clear signs. It is
 not Allah Who wrongs them, but they wrong their own souls.

Notice that they are listed in the same order as in chapter 11. First the people of Noah, then the Ad, then the Thamud, then the people of Abraham, then the Midianites. 

Another example of that we can see below:

22:42-44

If
 they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the peoples before them (with
 their prophets),- the People of Noah, and 'Ad and Thamud
Those of Abraham and Lut;
And the Companions of the Madyan People; and Moses was rejected (in the 
same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after 
that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was my rejection (of them)!

Notice the order the events and prophets are listed in.

If you were to read Lives of the Prophets by Ibn Qathir, you will see that the prophets are listed in chronological order, and that Shuayb is before Moses, and after Salih and Hud.
http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Stories%20Of%20The%20Prophets%20By%20Ibn%20Kathir.pdf

In reference to the book from a Muslim publisher:

Description from the publisher: 

 In this book, the 
stories of the prophets have been compiled from 'Al-Bidayah wan-Nihayah'
 (The Beginning and the End) which is a great work of the famous Muslim 
exegete and historian Ibn Kathir and has a prominent place in the 
Islamic literature. The stories of the prophets and all the events in 
their lives have been supported by the Qur'anic Verses and the Sunnah 
(traditions) of the Prophet (S). Wherever it was necessary, other 
sources have also been reported for the sake of historical accounts, but
 on such places a comparative study has been made to prove the 
authenticity of the sources. Ibn Kathir has reproduced the views and 
interpretations of all the great exegetes of the Qur'an of his time. The
 systemic narratives of the Stories of the Prophets have been written in
 chronological order which renders a historical style to the book.

 http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b2632.html

So it is clear that according to the Quran, as well as commentators like Ibn Qathir, the Thamud lived before Moses. 

Other Muslim sites that provide a chronological order of the prophets also list Moses as having lived after Shuaib.
http://www.iqra.net/articles/muslims/prophets.php

Finally, if Ibn Qathir's book and the other verses are not enough, here is definite proof that the Thamud lived before Moses.

40:27-35

Musa (Moses) said: "Verily I seek refuge in my Lord and your Lord from every arrogant who believes not in the Day of Reckoning!
And a believing man of Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) family, who hid his faith 
said: "Would you kill a man because he says: My Lord is Allah, and he 
has come to you with clear signs (proofs) from your Lord? And if he is a
 liar, upon him will be (the sin of) his lie; but if he is telling the 
truth, then some of that (calamity) wherewith he threatens you will 
befall on you." Verily, Allah guides not one who is a Musrif (a 
polytheist, or a murderer who shed blood without a right, or those who 
commit great sins, oppressor, transgressor), a liar!
"O my people! Yours is the kingdom today, you being dominant in the 
land. But who will save us from the Torment of Allah, should it befall 
us?" Fir'aun (Pharaoh) said: "I show you only that which I see 
(correct), and I guide you only to the path of right policy!"
And he who believed said: "O my people! Verily, I fear for you a fate like that day (of disaster) of the Confederates (of old)!
"Like
 the fate of the people of Nuh (Noah), and 'Ad, and Thamud and those who
 came after them. And Allah wills no injustice for (His) slaves.
"And, O my people! Verily, I fear for you the Day when there will be 
mutual calling (between the people of Hell and of Paradise)."
A Day when you will turn your backs and flee having no protector from 
Allah. And whomsoever Allah sends astray, for him there is no guide.
And indeed Yusuf (Joseph) did come to you, in times gone by, with clear 
signs, but you ceased not to doubt in that which he did bring to you: 
till when he died you said: "No Messenger will Allah send after him." 
Thus Allah leaves astray him who is a Musrif (a polytheist, an 
oppressor, a criminal, sinner who commit great sins) and a Murtab (one 
who doubts Allah's Warning and His Oneness).
Those
 who dispute about the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, 
revelations, etc.) of Allah, without any authority that has come to 
them, it is greatly hateful and disgusting to Allah and to those who 
believe. Thus does Allah seal up the heart of every arrogant, tyrant. 
(So they cannot guide themselves to the Right Path).

This man gave a speech to Pharaoh, and he was describing the Thamud and what happened to them.

We know that Moses lives around 1200 BC. This means that the Thamud would have lived before then. So we have a chronological order in place. According to the Quran, the Thamud lived before Moses.

 Caringheart wrote:

 Third, the Quran doesn't mention the term 'Nabateans', so also his supposition that there is a contradiction in terms of time (1000 years?) is also false. 

I didn't say there was a contradiction, I said there is a historical error.

The Quran doesn't mention the term "Nabataeans", but it mistakenly attributes the buildings built by them to the Thamud. As I have pointed out already, the buildings at Al Hijr were built by the Nabateans, who build them during the first century AD and a few decades before this. The events described in the Quran took place at least a milennium before this.

Ironically, although the Quran is extremely clear that the homes were built by the Thamud, if the person wants to argue they were built by the Ad, that would be even worse, since they lived before Salih!

 Caringheart wrote:

Thanks,
Caringheart

Anytime, sister.  

Could you please send me a link to this forum and discussion? Thanks so much!

God bless you.

Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud

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