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Hareems vs. dating?
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bronaz View Drop Down
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Points: 45 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bronaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2013 at 1:49am
Contrary to what most believe, Faith and reason are not at odds. If I believe that there is a God the next fact is that he must be reasonable. For example if God expects us to fly that would be unreasonable because he hasnt given us wings. He has given us a mind and it is essential that we use it to know and understand God. God cannot be illogical which would be against reason since he created man with a reasoning mind. If something in a holy book contradicts everything that a reasoning mind should believe, that that book cannot be from God. Once again I bring the subject of abrogation in the Quran where a subsequent verse supercedes the previous verse. It is unreasonable for God to CHANGE HIS MIND and offer different verses. what is reasonable and right becomes wrong later, that is not the way God operates, hence the God of the Quran cannot be justified by any means
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NABA View Drop Down
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Points: 867 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NABA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2013 at 11:08pm
I believe in Qur'an because it is logical,U R still sticking to the fact that spread out means flat but the fact is U don't want to except the truth,I also quoted ch 79 v 30 that earth is round,another eg in Surah An Noor ch 24 v 40-Allah describes the mental state of disbeliever to the layers of waves within one another and which gets darker and darker as we progress more deep into the sea,this fact was described by scientists few years back,but Allah mention this 1400 years ago in Qur'an,but it seems U don't want to change ur mind,U took it wrong that Allah had ascribed fix time for prayers,there is nothing mentioned about specific time when to offer prayers but he mentioned which phase of day we have to offer which prayer,regarding punishment of minor theft,this law of shariah is implemented in Saudi Arabia and on record it has the least no of theft cases,so doesn't it sound U logical??,if we implement this law throughout the world in Sha Allah no of theft cases will decrease,ur intellect and ur conscience is the niyamah from Allah,it is because of Allah that we are leading normal lives,u just visit hospital and see the pain of those who cannot lead normal life,yet they thank Allah,even if the whole world doesn't worship him it will not bother Allah,because Allah is way above all needs(ch 35 v 15),it is for our betterment we offer prayers(ch 35 v 9).

Edited by NABA - 07 July 2013 at 11:09pm
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2013 at 12:37pm

Originally posted by NABA NABA wrote:

at Ron how can U judge ur creator????

How can you NOT judge your creator?  You believe that God exists, that He is the author of the Quran, that He is telling the truth in that book, and that He is worthy of your worship.  How did you make those judgements?  How did you decide to believe the Quran, and not the Book of Mormon or the Bhagavad Gita or the Tao Te Ching?

I judge things according to my conscience and my intellect.  If God exists, and if He created me, then He must have given me those two things.  Therefore those are the only things that I can absolutely rely upon to judge everything else, including alleged holy scriptures.

I don't believe that God exists.  However, if He does, and if He is the author of the Quran, then my intellect tells me that He got quite a few things wrong (e.g. the flatness of the earth); and my conscience tells me that His moral standards are often arbitrary (e.g. fixed prayers) and sometimes cruel (e.g. chopping off hands for minor theft, condemning anyone to eternal torture).  So even if the God described in the Quran existed, my intellect and my conscience tell me that He would not be worthy of worship.



Edited by Ron Webb - 07 July 2013 at 12:38pm
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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NABA View Drop Down
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Points: 867 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NABA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2013 at 8:20am


at Ron how can U judge ur creator????but we Muslim s have full faith that if we do good deeds and ask for forgiveness in sha Allah Allah will enter us in jannah, my meaning of judgement was to do with the verse 4 ch 112 that there is nothing like him, means we can't think Allah in our memory, but we have to have constant faith in him, ch 3 v 160-if Allah is with u none can overcome u if Allah is against u there is who, who can save u let the believers put the trust in Allah.ch 29 v 69-if u strive in way of Allah, Allah will open pathways for u.my meaning was that we cant ascribe adjectives to Allah such as good, bad, wrong, right etc.Alllah can't do wrong nor lie (ch 20 v 52)

Edited by NABA - 07 July 2013 at 9:07am
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Experiential View Drop Down
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Points: 311 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Experiential Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2013 at 2:07am

Naushen said

IN december 2012, a girl was raped by 6 men one of them who was a minor, in a moving bus on the roads of Indian Capital. After they finished their job, they inserted rod in her genitals. Took away all her clothes and threw her off a bridge in the cold winter night - ie left her to die. I think it was highly disgusting, and those who did it had no fear of any kind of punishment.

If you do a google search on the event you can find several news items reporting from New Delhi. People in India were demanding a punishment for them as prescribed in the Quran ... they are not muslims, nobody, the victim the rapists or general public at large, but they asked for an islamic punishment.

The point here is that if one does not beleive in a 'disgusting' consequence of their 'disgusting' deeds, they can cross limits on earth - which makes life hell on this very planet. This event was no joke for anyone who has connections with India. I was considering my daughter's higher education in New Delhi, but I am much shaken from inside after this event - do you get a fair amount of impact of this event? If yes, what kind of world are we living in, and what kind of democracy are we voting for?

 
My reply

Yes Naushen I believe in eternal justice. However who was the psychopath that came up with � the sinners new skin will be given to feel the pain each time when they loose layer of skin�

 

 

Naushen said

This means if you believe in nothing but science, then even science is in harmony with the Quran at certain points, so why do you not pay attention to the Quran.

Real scientists pay attention to everything that is found relevant to their observations, and those who have seen their phenomenon mentioned in the Quran have taken the Quran more seriously than the by-standers.

 
My reply

Naba and many Muslims make a big thing of how the Quran is a �complete� book. A �miracle� book and they use science to prove this.

 In doing this they are actually trying to make a much stronger claim that  the Qur'an is predicting modern scientific discoveries as proof for the divine origin of the Qur'an. This  is rubbish because if they are using science to prove the divine origin of the Quran when what they are showing the Quran to be on the same level as science. Not divine!

 

Besides how do you explain the ridiculous scientific mistakes in the Quran � such as �

Sura 27:18-19 records that King Solomon overheard a conversation between ants. This is scientifically impossible as ants use smell, not sound, to communicate and the context of the story indicates that this is not a miracle of Allah.

 

 Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool.

Do you believe the sun sets in a muddy pond?

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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2013 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by NABA NABA wrote:

...we human can't judge Allah,...
 
If you can't judge Allah, then how can you say that He is good?
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2013 at 5:58pm

Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

The God in Islam however is not just merciful and compassionater - Ar Rahman and Ar Raheem.
He is also Al-Hasib and Al Muhsi - which means The Reckoner and Al- Muntaqim - which means the avenger besides so many other attributes, all totaling upto 99. These are on many instances mutually exclusive of each other. ie, a God who is merciful can at the same time be an avenger, and a reckoner - Wise and Just - all in the same instance.

"Mutually exclusive" means He can't be both at the same time.  And the fact is that He can't.  Punishment may make sense if it has the goal of changing future behaviour; but nobody who would torture a person eternally (for any reason whatsoever!) with no hope of future redemption can possibly be described as "merciful".

Quote So, if your God is merciful and compassionte only, how will He treat the social behaviors of the Ottaman masters towards their unmarried female slaves?

I don't have a God; but if you're asking how I think such a God should behave, I would say that He would not allow slavery in the first place.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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NABA View Drop Down
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Points: 867 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NABA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2013 at 9:37am

every believer has to have a fear of Allah because he is the only one to give reward and he is the only one to punish,as in my previous posts I always quote ch 28 v 84-if U do a good deed Allah will reward better than its merit,if U do a bad deed,Allah will either punish equal to its sin or forgive if we repent,this reflects how Allah is merciful,we human can't judge Allah,there is nothing like him(ch 112 v 4),yes I fear because there are so many instances in life that sometimes U are tempted to do wrong acts but these verses of Qur'an will refrain U from doing it,look i believe in today,adultery and fornication is forbidden so it is,if U ask my view is fornication is right if Qur'an was not revealed,the best answer is that Allah had sent many revelations before Qur'an by name 4 R mentioned in Qur'an taura,zabur,ingil,quran itself before Qur'an might b people follow that book which may forbid fornication,that's y i say y U look into history,talk about today in countries like UK,USA,fornication and adultery is common,most of them R non Muslims,in fact in book of proverbs ch 6 v 32-whoever commits adultery destroy his soul
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