the Qur'an and peace |
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Matt Browne
Senior Member Male Joined: 19 April 2010 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 937 |
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I would like to add that we should also fear a) non-violent Muslims who support a political system based on the Quran and the Sunnah b) non-violent Muslims who distort history and do not acknowledge Muslim cruelty and injustice of the past c) non-violent Muslims who reject reform and do not acknowledge that there are problematic messages in the Quran and the Sunnah Take a look at this: Instances of problematic messages in the Bible: Injustice: 1528 Cruelty and Violence: 1313 Intolerance: 699 Misogyny: 385 Homosexuality: 36 Instances of problematic messages in the Quran: Injustice: 769 Intolerance: 536 Cruelty and Violence: 532 Misogyny: 68 Homosexuality: 4 Source: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm Edited by Matt Browne - 24 April 2013 at 6:30am |
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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Matt Browne
Senior Member Male Joined: 19 April 2010 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 937 |
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You are distorting historical facts. While Christians burned and tortured heretics, Muslims had established an apartheid-type system called dhimmitude, based on the laws of the sharia (e.g. in Al-Andalus). As long as Christians and Jews didn't challenge their rulers, no one got hurt. Muslims tortured Muslims who didn't comply with the sharia laws. Muslims beheaded and stoned Muslim heretics, which is equally cruel as burning witches. You are right, at the time, there were also translation of books important to all of mankind. During segregation in the American South important books were also translated into other languages. This doesn't make having second-class citizens any better. The difference between today's mainstream Christians and mainstream Muslims is that Christians acknowledge the cruelty of the past, while Muslims call Islamic Iberia a tolerant system. Irshad Manji knows that it wasn't, but then she isn't a mainstream Muslim.
Decent peace-loving Muslims do not resort to using insults. Xenophobia is an irrational or unreasoned fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange. Show me one example, Abuayisha, of something I wrote that points to xenophobia. Just one example. Well, you won't find a single sentence. You are simply making unfounded accusations, when you run out of arguments.
Believe me, I really understand the sharia. There are parts in it that are harmless. But there are other parts in it that resemble the principles of totalitarian ideologies such as Stalinism, Maoism and Nazism. These parts of the sharia blatantly contradict universal human rights and the content of the constitutions of our Western countries. Here are a few examples 1) A Muslim who becomes a Christian or an atheist gets the death penalty. 2) A Muslim and non-Muslim who commits blasphemy must be tortured or killed. 3) The People of the Book are second-class citizens. 4) People who commit adultery are to be stoned to death. 5) Muslim men can socialize with other people, but Muslim women can't. 6) A Muslim woman's testimony is worth less than that of a Muslim man. 7) A non-Muslim's testimony is worth less than that of a Muslim man. 8) Wife beating is not a crime, when the husband has a good reason for it. (...) The list goes on and on. Edited by Matt Browne - 24 April 2013 at 1:31am |
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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
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abuayisha
Senior Member Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Indeed this is a troubling phenomenon, and Muslims throughout the west must learn the "narrative" these crazy ideologues spout, counter it, and ultimately, as New York's Mayor Bloomberg has said; 'when you see something say something'. These guys need to brought to the attention of law enforcement whenever an individual's rhetoric has crossed the line. I think one of the biggest challenges Muslims in the west face is wrapping their heads around the sad reality that one of their own actually do committ these heinous crimes. Unfortuantely too much energy is wasted on conspriacy thinking. "sigh"
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Reepicheep
Senior Member Joined: 06 November 2006 Status: Offline Points: 324 |
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abuayisha wrote: it is little wonder so many Muslims are living in "your" countries. Your values and ours are basically the same.
Abuayisha, it appears that you share Irshad Manji's views on life in the west (i.e., you both have no real complaints about the Canadian and US legal systems), so neither of you are the type of muslims that us kuffar fear.
What we fear are muslims who feel their religion gives them the right to commit terrorist acts (for example, the two muslim brothers who attacked the Boston marathon, or the two muslims who were arrested in Canada yesterday, who were planning to blow up a train travelling from Toronto to New York.)
In any case, I think we all agree that muslims who live in Canada and the USA have more religious freedom than muslims who live in any muslim majority country anywhere else in the world. Edited by Reepicheep - 23 April 2013 at 6:27pm |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Abuayisha,
" Well, pretty much what I thought; an irrational fear - " ... I may slip at some point and be overheard to express an opinion, I could end up at worst dead..." Why do you deny that this actually happens in Islamic states? Salaam, Caringheart |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Rational discussion...
to quote Matt; "Within the Muslim world we see a struggle between these two kinds of interpretations. Ignoring the troubling interpretations would be irresponsible. Their existence is a fact." "It's not just a problem of a tiny violent minority. The Quran needs an interpretation that works in the 21st century. Islam has to go through the same painful process as Christianity did, going from burning witches and scientists to supporting the declaration of universal human rights." |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Greetings abuayisha, Yes... in the United States... a land of freedom and democracy and equal treatment of all... How much longer will the United States remain that way? Interesting how you honed in on one statement... Did you completely ignore the rationality of the rest of what I wrote? (This is why you spend so little time in interfaith discussion.) Would you be content if, because of your individual beliefs and regardless of the fact that you were a good law abiding citizen, you were to be treated as a subjugated person? Even when you behaved as every other God fearing person behaved? Do you live in the United States where you are equal with all others regardless of the fact that you believe in Muhammad and his teachings, which may disagree with others, even of those who rule in the country? Salaam, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 23 April 2013 at 10:06am |
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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
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abuayisha
Senior Member Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Matt, interesting that you have mentioned witches, because while they were being burned and tortured the sharia you fear so much was living in peace with other faiths and translating books important to all of mankind. Notwithstanding your xenophobia, your society is open and multicultural, therefore "our society" includes Muslims (no matter how much that scares you). And if you really understood sharia you would know your touted values and your western society could never be "sharia free" because the very bases of sharia upholds a persons life, religion and wealth - there shall be no harm. Therefore it is little wonder so many Muslims are living in "your" countries. Your values and ours are basically the same. Anyway, the reason I spend so little time in the interfaith section of our forum is that people are going to believe what they want to believe, and you're quaking in your boots concerning our faith.
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