the Qur'an and peace

abuayisha wrote: Matt, interesting that you have mentioned witches, because while they were being burned and tortured the sharia you fear so much was living in peace with other faiths and translating books important to all of mankind.

You are distorting historical facts. While Christians burned and tortured heretics, Muslims had established an apartheid-type system called dhimmitude, based on the laws of the sharia (e.g. in Al-Andalus). As long as Christians and Jews didn't challenge their rulers, no one got hurt. Muslims tortured Muslims who didn't comply with the sharia laws. Muslims beheaded and stoned Muslim heretics, which is equally cruel as burning witches. You are right, at the time, there were also translation of books important to all of mankind. During segregation in the American South important books were also translated into other languages. This doesn't make having second-class citizens any better.

The difference between today's mainstream Christians and mainstream Muslims is that Christians acknowledge the cruelty of the past, while Muslims call Islamic Iberia a tolerant system. Irshad Manji knows that it wasn't, but then she isn't a mainstream Muslim.

abuayisha wrote: Notwithstanding your xenophobia, your society is open and multicultural, therefore "our society" includes Muslims (no matter how much that scares you).

Decent peace-loving Muslims do not resort to using insults. Xenophobia is an irrational or unreasoned fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange. Show me one example, Abuayisha, of something I wrote that points to xenophobia. Just one example. Well, you won't find a single sentence. You are simply making unfounded accusations, when you run out of arguments.

abuayisha wrote: And if you really understood sharia you would know your touted values and your western society could never be "sharia free" because the very bases of sharia upholds a persons life, religion and wealth - there shall be no harm.

Believe me, I really understand the sharia. There are parts in it that are harmless. But there are other parts in it that resemble the principles of totalitarian ideologies such as Stalinism, Maoism and Nazism. These parts of the sharia blatantly contradict universal human rights and the content of the constitutions of our Western countries. Here are a few examples

1) A Muslim who becomes a Christian or an atheist gets the death penalty.
2) A Muslim and non-Muslim who commits blasphemy must be tortured or killed.
3) The People of the Book are second-class citizens.
4) People who commit adultery are to be stoned to death.
5) Muslim men can socialize with other people, but Muslim women can't.
6) A Muslim woman's testimony is worth less than that of a Muslim man.
7) A non-Muslim's testimony is worth less than that of a Muslim man.
8) Wife beating is not a crime, when the husband has a good reason for it.
(...)
The list goes on and on.


Edited by Matt Browne - 24 April 2013 at 1:31am

abuayisha wrote:  it is little wonder so many Muslims are living in "your" countries. Your values and ours are basically the same.  

Edited by Reepicheep - 23 April 2013 at 6:27pm

Rational discussion...
to quote Matt;
"Within the Muslim world we see a struggle between these two kinds of interpretations. Ignoring the troubling interpretations would be irresponsible. Their existence is a fact."

"It's not just a problem of a tiny violent minority. The Quran needs an interpretation that works in the 21st century. Islam has to go through the same painful process as Christianity did, going from burning witches and scientists to supporting the declaration of universal human rights."

Matt, interesting that you have mentioned witches, because while they were being burned and tortured the sharia you fear so much was living in peace with other faiths and translating books important to all of mankind. Notwithstanding your xenophobia, your society is open and multicultural, therefore "our society" includes Muslims (no matter how much that scares you).  And if you really understood sharia you would know your touted values and your western society could never be "sharia free" because the very bases of sharia upholds a persons life, religion and wealth - there shall be no harm.  Therefore it is little wonder so many Muslims are living in "your" countries. Your values and ours are basically the same.  Anyway, the reason I spend so little time in the interfaith section of our forum is that people are going to believe what they want to believe, and you're quaking in your boots concerning our faith.