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BIBLE;JESUS NOT CRUCIFIED

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Placid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Placid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2013 at 8:26am
Quote:It just sounds funny that God's son has to worship his father, and I don't mean no offense. It just sounds funny to think that. God's son who himself is part god worships the other part of God, that is father, sounds like my dish washer.

Response: --- While the general thinking continues to be that Jesus was the second part of a trinity, it is a faulty doctrine that is corrected in the Quran, if anyone takes time to notice. --- Jesus was born on earth, and it was the Word that came down from heaven as in 3:
45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

So here is what it says: --- "The Word came down and indwelt the body of Jesus, who was CALLED the Son of God, but who CALLED Himself the Son of Man, because He was born of flesh and blood like His mother Mary.

Now if we go to another place, we find this in Surah 4:
171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God.

--- See what it says? Jesus was only a Messenger of God,--- And His Word (that came down from heaven) --- and His Spirit. --- so these three, God, His Word and His Spirit are the "Three Manifestations of God from heaven" that are CALLED the heavenly 'trinity' --- But the verse says, "and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God."

--- You see? --- Jesus is not one of the Three. --- This is why He was on earth and could "Pray to His Father in heaven,--- and notice the next verse in 4:
172 Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship God, nor do the angels, those nearest (to God): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, - He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

You see again? Jesus was a Servant on earth to God in heaven, yet while He was on earth He was CALLED the Son of God, ---which He was, because He had no earthly father, did He?

Placid


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johnford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2013 at 8:15pm
Quote ... you still have to repent fom your sins for God the Father to be prepared to count Jesus as having died in your place, or tough.�


Why?

There is no evidence, other than that created by the Church, to suggest Jesus died for me.

The Church, that the Roman Emperor Constantine (325) needed to support the failing empire, was a creation of political expediency which was given the task of hammering out a unity among the various opposing bishops upon which they were rewarded with the official status as State Religion.

From there on, any fading shard of the teachings of Jesus was ground to powder and made into something new and the world got Churchianity.

Jesus did not die because of some doctrine of Original Sin ... that was an invention of the Church ... no Church = no Original Sin ... no original sin means no one had die to somehow overcome that what didn't happen anyway.

Before you want to argue please read Genesis very carefully ... and do it again ... and you might note that Adam and Eve were not thrown out of the Garden because of 'sin' ... 'man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil: and now he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' ... no sin ... Adam and Eve did nothing wrong ...

But in knowing good and evil that God had to protect them from the Tree of Life and for the protection of humankind we had to die.

That is the epistemic wound that we carry ... that we know we will die ... that is what happens when we seek knowledge.

Nope .... nothing here about sin, original or otherwise. Jesus, peace and blessing be upon him, did not HAVE to die to satisfy the theological machinations of bishops ... he died because he bought the message of the prophets, and that message was rejected.    



Edited by johnford - 17 December 2013 at 8:21pm
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2013 at 9:08am

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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honeto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2013 at 9:42am
Placid,
so what about Adam, he did not have an earthly father, not even a mother! What about Eve? No father, no mother either? God's son and daughter will you call them too.
Sorry Placid but it still sounds like my dish washer, now only overloaded!
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 18 December 2013 at 10:06am
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iec786 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2013 at 10:14am
Melchisedek

Melchizedek the king of Salem (which later became known as Jerusalem) and a high priest of God Most High (cf. Genesis 14:18-20). What makes this rather astonishing is that the author claims that Melchizedek has no beginning or end of life, no parents, and no genealogy. These are attributes and characteristics which belong only to God, which therefore suggests that Melchizedek is actually God. If this is the case then wouldn�t this mean that he is greater than Jesus? If so why aren�t Christians worshiping him? At the very least wouldn�t this imply that the Christian God is a Quadrinity (four Persons in One) as opposed to a Trinity?
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johnford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 December 2013 at 12:03pm
On the other had Melchisdek may well have been an angle.

The problem with Christian theology is has to address the question ... why did Jesus die ... this then relates to the introduction of Original Sin which ... then means that Jesus ... is subsequently redefined as God ... which means that God must have been in at least two places at once ... all of which becomes even more confusing when you have to accommodate a place for the Holy Spirit.

It is like digging an ever deeper hole only to have the whole then collapse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2013 at 3:39pm
At times like this, those who profess God having a begotten son disappear, darn it. It always happens, they disappear like "horns off of a donkey's head" LOL, an old saying from south Asia.
Hasan
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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Webber View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Webber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 12:38am
Originally posted by johnford johnford wrote:

On the other had Melchisdek may well have been an angle.

The problem with Christian theology is has to address the question ... why did Jesus die ... this then relates to the introduction of Original Sin which ... then means that Jesus ... is subsequently redefined as God ... which means that God must have been in at least two places at once ... all of which becomes even more confusing when you have to accommodate a place for the Holy Spirit.

It is like digging an ever deeper hole only to have the whole then collapse.


I'm afraid you guys have been fed so much garbage that you couldn't understand if you tried, and you certainly are not trying.

If God is closer than your jugular vein, and also closer than mine, that's already two places, what about the rest of the world? At least...at least be careful when dissing Christians not to dis God at the same time. It will not go well for you.

"According to the order of Melchizedek." does not refer to humanity. Does not make him God. Are you guys stuck on only man and God exist?

Everybody seems to see Original sin as Adam eating an apple. Actually a "fruit" not named. Original sin, Adam sinned so we are all sinners. Could it really be that simple? Considering God forgave him, why don't they call it the original forgiven sin? Quite simple. It wasn't the act of eating the fruit that created a lineage of sinful humans but the ingesting of it which was a poison to the pure bodies Adam and Eve were given. They underwent an obvious change they felt ashamed of and had to hide from God because of it. If you are used to wearing nothing but notice you are naked and have to hide behind fig leaves, something changed. God forgave the sin but did not reverse the perversion caused by their disobedience. It's not the mind God considers sinful, but the body.
Do some reading, see if you grasp that concept from Genesis. You can teach it to Christians...

Please...Until you are ready to ask about the Holy Spirit, don't diss in that direction either.




I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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