Discussion and challenge to MahditheSeeker

It would have been good if he had a few dates on that fateful day. It might have saved him a slow and painful death.

Rational wrote: ‎السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Wa antaa aydan.

TG12345 wrote: I can see your point, but would God allow someone innocent to be harmed because another person is trying to test to see if the words of His prophet are correct?

Rational wrote: We don't know. A muslim does not need to do this.

If God allowed an innocent person to be harmed, He would be showing him that Muhammad was wrong concerning the dates.

TG12345 wrote: Would it be fair to the person who is a faithful Muslim and tries to follow Muhammad and eats 7 dates in the morning as he recommended to avoid harm from toxins and magic, to be badly harmed by a toxin in spite of what his prophet said?

Rational wrote: No it wouldn't but you're not listening. If you want to find out because you are disbelieving, then there is nothing stopping you from being cruel and testing it on someone. Then you can let us all know.

Of course I would never do such a thing. I don't want to have severely harmed or killed a person just to prove Muhammad was wrong.

TG12345 wrote: If Jesus said that eating 7 dates first thing in the morning would ensure that no toxin would harm a person and this was meant for all people and not only people in a specific period in history, then yes, it would be fine of you to do that. Of course, Jesus said no such thing in the Bible.

Rational wrote: Muslims would not support any other muslim that disbelieves the words of the messenger (pbuh). Faith and trust is all that is needed.

So you do believe that 7 ajwa dates a day eaten in the morning regularly will protect a person from harm against all toxins?

TG12345 wrote: If the 7 dates in the morning protect against toxins, then drinking a toxin would not be purposefully placing oneself in any danger since Muhammad himself stated that a person who eats 7 of them in the morning will not be harmed.

Rational wrote: I'll try one more time because this debate is getting nowhere. A person that eats 7 dates then deliberately drinks poison, is proving his lack of faith. He is a disbeliever. In doing this act, we can agree that he is disobeying God (unless ofcourse you think he is obeying God, then we'll end it here and move to another thread). Because he is disobeying, why would God come to his rescue?

If the person was doing this to see if God would really save him, this would indeed be an act of disbelief and doubt.

What if he did so to make a powerful proof to a non-Muslim to convince him or her that Muhammad's teachings are indeed true and to bring glory to God?

We both believe the prophets performed miracles (ie Moses with the staff, and Jesus (whom I believe more to be a prophet) raising the dead). The Quran teaches that Pharaoh's men believed Moses was from God after seeing his snake eat theirs.

Clearly, your faith teaches that some non-Muslims were won over by miracles. What if a person allowed himself to intentionally ingest toxin to show to non-Muslims that Muhammad's words are miraculous- that they are from God and can be trusted in any circumstance?

This would then not be a matter of suicide or doubting God, but spreading the message of Islam.

TG12345 wrote: I think we both know however, that eating 7 ajwa dates first thing in the morning will not protect a person against all toxins. A person on this diet would very much be harmed if not killed by a rattlesnake bite or ingesting botulism, regardless of how the toxin entered their body.

Rational wrote: No sorry, not both. You might think you know. If the messenger said it, then I have a duty to believe him. I believe that God is capable of anything. I told you before, if the messenger said this, then it's not the dates doing the work, it's Allah. We humans will never be able to scientifically prove if dates protect against all toxins, furthermore we'd need to prove that dates protect against magic. Again science falls short. So it's a matter of faith and trust in Allah (Subhanaho Wa Ta'ala). I've presented my reasons and don't see anything else to add. If you're still not convinced then we'll just have to leave it. والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Wa alaykum salaam.

We may have to leave it there then. I am 1000% confident that eating 7 dates a day first thing will not protect a Muslim from all toxins that day. I firmly believe that a person on this diet who would be bitten by a poisonous snake would get very sick and/or die.

This can be easily proven on an unsuspecting Muslim, but I'd never do such a thing because I would never harm another person. Which is what they would suffer... serious harm if not death.. if they were to ingest a poisonous toxin... regardless of what they ate in the morning.

I also believe God is capable of anything. I do not believe He told Muhammad to say that 7 ajwa dates in the morning will prevent all toxins from harming a person.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. If you choose to continue this discussion further I certainly will respond to your points. Otherwise I am alright with letting it end here.


All the best to you, I am sure we will have more discussions on other threads.

TG12345 wrote: I was in the West Bank with 2 groups, one called Christian Peacemaker Teams and the other International Solidarity Movement. Our job was to document the Israeli army's and settler's abuses of Palestinians and when able to, step in and try to prevent them. It worked to an extent, sometimes we were able to get soldiers to stop harrassing people on the streets when they saw we were filming them. We would also share people's stories with others we know back in our home countries, so their voices would be heard. I went to the West Bank because as a Christian I believe we are called to hunger and thirst for justice and to be peacemakers, like Jesus said. Soon after I became a believer, I learned about the situation of the Palestinian people and have been trying to follow the events there and speaking out where I live. I am also disgusted by the fact that there are Christians who believe the abuses that Israel is committing are somehow justified and in accordance with the Bible... they aren't. I think God placed it on my heart, laugh if you want and it may sound corny but I believe He did. It took many years before I was able to save up enough and go, and inshAllah one day I will go again. I went to do what I could to help prevent or at least alleviate the violence. I believe Jesus when He said that what is done to victims of poverty and injustice is done to Him, and so I was honoured to do my small part in serving the Palestinian people. Wherever I go I try to be a witness to my faith, so I wore the cross I normally wear around my neck and there were times when people saw it and would ask me about my faith and wanted to share their beliefs with me, and we'd have some good discussions. I didn't ever initiate the discussions as this was not a 'missions trip', but I did pray to God for oppurtunities to share my faith in Jesus and He provided. I didn't hand out tracts, try to start churches, preach on street corners, ask people to convert if that's what you were wondering. Neither one of the two groups I went with are into that kind of thing either. My reason for going was to try to do what I could to stop the oppression of the Palestinian people and to serve Jesus and be a witness to Him. Hope that helps explain.

Rational wrote: I respect you for this. I feel you have sincere intentions and I pray that Allah (SWT) blesses and guides you in those efforts. I also want to visit that land one day insha Allah. It is disgusting how the Palestinians are being robbed from their lands while the worlds goes about it's business. I'm happy to see you want to learn arabic so keep it up if you can. If you manage to read the Quran in arabic one day, you will be pleasantly surprised Insha Allah. Thanks you for sharing.

Assalamu alaikum, Rational.

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate how you are honest about your faith and at the same time are respectful to non-Muslims. I haven't sen you swear or curse anyone on here even once. I believe you believe Islam is the truth and you want others to come to it. I believe also that you are sincere and will also pray to Allah for you... although as you know I believe He is in some ways different than what Islam teaches.

Kind of busy now with other stuff to start studying Arabic again, but it is definitely on my 'to do list'. It would be amazing to read the Quran in Arabic. It is a beautiful language, I love not only the sound of it but it also looks so elegant in its writing. Did you know that Arabs were among the first Christians mentioned in the Book of Acts?

Acts 2:5-12

⁵ Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. ⁶ And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. ⁷ And they were amazed and astonished, saying, �Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? ⁸ And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? ⁹ Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, ¹⁰ Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, ¹¹ both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians�we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.� ¹²

To clarify something very important, I haven't done much, I was in Israel and Palestine only for 6 weeks, there are people I met in CPT who have spent years there. One day InshAllah I will go back and do more. There have also been people like Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall who have paid for the work they did with their lives. Rachel was crushed with a bulldozer while defending Palestinian homes, Tom was shot in the head while helping Palestinian kids escape from IDF fire. If you haven't heard their names, I would encourage you to go on google and find them.

The people really worthy of respect are those Palestinians and Israelis we met who work every day for a just peace. They have suffered for this in both beatings, arrests, jail time, and also deaths... I am only aware of Palestinians who were killed by the IDF and settlers. I am  unaware of Israelis who were killed defending Palestinians... not that shootings and permanent and life altering brain injuries from plastic bullets that some Israeli activists have suffered aren't terrible also. I met Palestinian Muslims and Christians who are standing up for their rights and the rights of their people and confronting the injustices and taking great risks while refusing to use violence. I met Israeli Jews who have had their families and friends and cast them out for standing up for the Palestinians.


Compared to their work and sacrifices, my 6 weeks is a pathetic joke. We did some good and praise be to God for that, but I'm in no way a 'hero' or worthy of any more respect than anyone else.


I am frustrated by how most of the world ignores the injustices the Palestinians suffer. Since coming back, I have done a presentation in church and at some schools (I am a substitute teacher) and have talked to my friends and have gone to demos and tried to raise awareness...but there is so much apathy and ignorance.

The situation in Palestine is terrible, though it is true also there are other human rights crises that claim even more lives and are ignored. In Arizona, on the US-Mexico border, hundreds of Mexicans and Central Americans die a horrific death trying to cross the desert to get jobs so they can send money back home to support their loved ones. They cross illegally because they are not allowed to enter legally, and to a huge extent the terrible poverty they are trying to escape are caused by economic trade policies shaped by my country (Canada) and the US. People die slow and agonizing deaths from dehydration and hunger, others are robbed and killed by gangs who take advantage of them. Tens of thousands are abused by the US Border Patrol as they are deported to Mexico.

I was able to spend 6 weeks one summer volunteering with a group called No More Deaths that provides water to migrants in the desert. We were there in July and August, when the temperatures would shoot up to forty degrees Celsius. I met people who have been on the brink of death, people whose whole families were destroyed after some bigwigs decided to cut down the price of corn in Mexico by 70%. I was able to visit a refugee camp for deported people, I have heard stories of Border Police kicking people they picked up and forcing children and elderly people to kneel on hot asphalt for half an hour with their hands behind their backs. It was humbling to hear their stories, and made me angry also because as with the case of Palestine, no one cares or even knows.

One amazing story was when 2 Mexican men came to our camp. One was an evangelical pastor and the other a 16 year old Catholic boy. They were traveling to the US to work and were being guided by human smugglers. At one point in the journey their 'coyote' told the group they will have to carry marijuana. If the migrants refused they would be abandoned in the desert... a fate far worse than a bullet in the head. In spite of this, the two of them decided they would not do what they know is wrong, and were abandoned. They wandered for a few days, and when they found our camp they were in an extremely bad state. I think it is possible they would have died had they been out any longer. We managed to feed them and provide them with clothes... the group I was with is very much disliked by the police and many in the US who see the migrants as scum and criminals... but it is not against the law to feed people and offer them humanitarian aid, although we could not transport them. They stayed with us for a while. During this time, the pastor got out his guitar and played me some Praise and Worship songs in Spanish. It was very beautiful. Most of my fellow activists were not Christian (although I highly respect and like them), it was awesome to have a fellow believer for a few days. The two men then left, we got word a few weeks later that they reached their destinations and found work.

If you are interested in checking out the blogs I maintained in Palestine and Arizona and read more about the amazing people I met and their struggle for justice, check out:

www.livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.com

www.northoftheborder-alnortedelafrontera.blogspot.com


Another terrible example of injustice is the terrible poverty and racism suffered in Canada by our First Nations peoples... suffering caused to a huge part by actions of imperialist 'christians' and the horrific legacy of residential schools... where Native kids were placed in by people who abused them in the name of Jesus and punished them for speaking their language. Many families were devastated, and a whole generation was traumatized. Native peoples in our country have the highest rates of alcoholism, crime, poverty and incarceration. There is a lot to do here. As an educator and a volunteer at a drop-in I have the privilege of working with kids from the inner city, many of them native and many of them immigrants who come from countries at war like Somalia. The challenges many of the kids face are almost impossible for many to comprehend. But one thing that God has shown me is His love for them... sometimes the work can be frustrating, especially when violence or bad behaviour happens... and it is easy to get angry or overwhelmed (and I do at times)... but then He reminds me we are all His creation and that He is in them. My wife and I are blessed to go to a church that is located in one of the most impoverished and crime ridden parts of our city, and is choosing to follow Jesus and serve and seek God with and worship Him along with our brothers and sisters in the street, as well as supports opposing injustice. Our pastor has received death threats from gangs for the work he does and was once beaten up by several people for jumping on a person who they were kicking who was on the pavement... their blows fell on him instead of their original victim. Shockingly, the police stood by and did nothing. To them, the guy getting beaten up was 'just another drunk Indian'.

Sorry for all the stories, and I realize I just probably derailed this thread. Oh well, I'm the one who started it. 

As a Christian, I believe that God cares about justice in our world, and He hates it when innocent people are taken advantage of, abused and oppressed. This is as true in the West Bank as it is on the US-Mexico as it is in my city as it is in Syria and El Salvador and Chechnya and Egypt.

I love Him for many reasons. One of them is that He sides with the weak and despised and abused rather than with the rich and powerful.


Edited by TG12345 - 19 January 2013 at 8:47pm

Assalamu Alaikum, Mansoor_Ali

Mansoor_ali wrote: ANCHORFREE_VERSION="623161526"var _AF2$={'SN':'HSSHIELD00PK','IP':'69.22.170.228','CH':'HSSCNL000080','CT':'XX','HST':'&SFLAG=1&FBWCNT_FIREFOX=9>rk=n&clsBtnCnt=2&NO_FBW_FIREFOX=1','AFH':'hss77','RN':Math.floor(Math.random()*999),'TOP':(parent.location!=document.location||top.location!=document.location)?0:1,'AFVER':'2.84','fbw':false,'FBWCNT_FIREFOX':0};if(/^(.*,)?(11C)(,.*)?$/g.exec(_AF2$.CT)!=null&&_AF2$.CH!='HSSCNL000242'){document.write("")}document.write("< ='text/' title='AFc_"+_AF2$.RN+"' >.AFc_body"+_AF2$.RN+"{} .AFc_all"+_AF2$.RN+",a.AFc_all"+_AF2$.RN+":hover,a.AFc_all"+_AF2$.RN+":visited{outline:none;background:transparent;border:none;margin:0;padding:0;top:0;left:0;text-decoration:none;overflow:hidden;display:block;z-index:666999;}");< ="text/" title="AFc_94">.AFc_body94{} .AFc_all94,a.AFc_all94:hover,a.AFc_all94:visited{outline:none;background:transparent;border:none;margin:0;padding:0;top:0;left:0;text-decoration:none;overflow:hidden;display:block;z-index:666999;}< ="text/">.AFhss_dpnone{display:none;width:0;height:0}if(_AF2$.TOP==1){if(_AF2$.CH=='HSSCNL000242'){document.write("")}else if(_AF2$.CH=='HSSCNL000248'){document.write("")}else if(_AF2$.CH=='HSSCNL000249'){document.write("")}else if(_AF2$.CH=='HSSCNL000484' || _AF2$.CH=='HSSCNL000447'){document.write("")}else{var m=new RegExp(/&FBWCNT_FIREFOX=([0-9]+)/g).exec(_AF2$.HST);_AF2$.FBWCNT_FIREFOX=(m!=null&&typeof(m[1])!='undefined')?parseInt(m[1]):0;if(parseFloat(_AF2$.AFVER)>=2.03&&/NO_FBW_FIREFOX/.test(_AF2$.HST)==false&&_AF2$.FBWCNT_FIREFOX<10&&navigator.appVersion.indexOf("Win")!=-1){_AF2$.strl=1998;_AF2$.fbw=true}.write(" TG12345  In response, I would challenge you to prove Muhammad was right in a very fascinating thing that he said. Muhammad, whom you believe is a prophet from God, stated that if a person eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning, he or she will not be harmed by magic or poisons/toxins for that day. This is documented in the following hadiths. Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663: Narrated Saud: The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates). Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664: Narrated Saud: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day." http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/071-sbt.php#007.071.582 Sahih Muslim Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: He who ate seven dates (of the land situated) between these two lava plains in the morning, no poison will harm him until it is evening.  (Book #023, Hadith #5080) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=dates+poison&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all �Aisha reported Allah�s Messenger as saying, �The �ajwah dates of al-�Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.� (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592) http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html Muhammad not only said that 7 dates first thing in  the morning will make sure the person who eats them will not be harmed by poison/toxin or magic that day, but he also made it clear that no poison can harm a person who does this, and that the dates contain healing for all kinds of magic or toxins. If you believe his words are to be trusted, I would encourage you to test it out. Invite someone from your mosque over for supper or lunch. Make sure they have eaten 7 ajwa dates that morning. Make sure they are from Medina. It's important. Then have them pet a rattlesnake or black mamba (seems to be your fave kind of serpent), or play with a black widow. Make sure they get bitten. If Muhammad was right, then the toxins will not harm that person. If they get sick and/or die, I guess that will have proven he was wrong. Either that, or the person you just killed and/or severely harmed wasn't a "real Muslim". Try it on someone else. Just do it quickly, before the police find out and put you in jail for murder, because... in all likelihood... the person will either get very sick or die. * I hope you do not actually try this challenge, because I don't want to hear of you doing life in a penitentiary or institution. Regardless of what Muhammad stated, dates will not protect you or anyone else from all toxins.     Mansoor_ali wrote: To TG12345  Well we must understand Hadith with the understandings of companions of Prophet Muhammad.Not a single companion understood it like if some one eats Ajwa and then eat poison,it will not effect.Otherwise they would be the first ones to use this Hadith against non-muslims. How they interpreted or did not interpret his words is not the issue, I think. Some Muslims like the author of Islam QA interprets the Quran and hadiths in such a way that for him it is acceptable to physically force non-Muslims who are not People of the Book to accept Islam. Most Muslims I know disagree with his interpretation although unlike him, they are not scholars. Muhammad said very clearly that those who eat 7 ajwa dates in the morning first thing will not be harmed by toxins or magic. He went as far as to claim that no toxin or magic can harm them. Mansoor_ali wrote: Prophet Muhammad said:  Whoever takes poison and kills himself, his poison will be in his hand and he will be sipping it in the Fire of Hell for ever and ever. [Narrated byal-Bukhaari, 5442; Muslim,109]  So clearly Eating poison is killing yourself and it is prohibited, The hadith says that the person who takes poisons and kills himself will be sipping it in hell forever. If Muhammad's words are true, then the 7 dates would protect a person from toxins. Toxin could only kill a person who ate them before ingesting it, if the hadith was wrong. There is probably a much safer way to test this out. Eat 7 dates in the morning as Muhammad said, and then allow a bee to sting you. The toxin that is in the bee is relatively harmless and unless you have a bee allergy, you will not die or even be badly hurt. As you know, bees have toxin. If Muhammad was correct, the toxin should have no effect. There should be no swelling of any kind, which normally happens after a bee sting because this is caused by the low level of toxin that is from the stinger. Mansoor_ali wrote: the hadith in discussion means if someone eat dates in the morning with strong certainty and full submission, then if some scorpion or any other poisoning animal bite him by any chance then Insha'Allah no poison will effect him but he should not think that dates will save him but it is Allah who saves. If you truly believe this, eat 7 ajwa dates in the morning with strong certainty and full submission, and then go collect some honey. Make sure you address appropriately so you don't get stung too much or get harmed. Chances are that, like every beekeeper, you will be stung at least once. If and when you do get stung, examine your arm or whatever part of the body that got stung. If there is absolutely no swelling or pain, it means Muhammad was right and that the toxin has had no effect. If there is swelling, it means that the toxin has affected your body and he was wrong.  Conclusion:   Mansoor_ali wrote: 1- You are not allowed to take poison or anything may harm your body. Learn how to work as a beekeer and gather some honey for people at your mosque. It would be a kind and selfless act, and for the most part harmless (beekeepers are stung, but rarely ever harmed) not intentionally inviting harm on yourself. Muhammad said honey is a good thing, and I agree with him on that. Mansoor_ali wrote: 2- 'Ajwa dates is one of the means that prevent being poisioned, With The Permission of Allah. It is, and according to what Muhammad said, eating 7 of them in the morning will prevent any toxin or magic from harming the person.  [QUOTE=Mansoor_ali] 3- Being protected against poison by eating these dates is conditional to the will of Allah; if Allah will its effect happen and if He does not Will so then posien will take effect.

I agree with you on that too. If it is God's will, the person will not be harmed and Muhammad's words will be proven right. If it is not, then there will be an effect and we will know that his statement that eating 7 ajwa dates will cause toxins to have no effect on a person to be incorrect.