Discussion and challenge to MahditheSeeker

Webber wrote: Sounds like two guys headed for Fla for the sake of a challenge. I guess the first one to post after wins. Don't forget to take the figs along.

LOL!!!!

Rational wrote: السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

My Arabic is pretty poor, I took some lessons before going to the West Bank but that was more than 2 years ago. Care to share with me what that means?


I think the first two words says "Assalamu Alikum", is that correct? what does the rest of the sentence say? I see the word "Allah" and the words "wa" several times.

Is it Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh?

May the peace, mercy, and blessings of Allah be with you ?

http://islam.about.com/od/glossary/g/gl_salaam.htm


May God's peace, mercy and blessings be on you also.

TG12345 wrote: Not sure what your point here is.

Rational wrote: It's really not that hard. You say that Paul did not play with the snake intentionally. Meaning he didn't bring harm to himself, it was an accident, fair enough. But what I'm telling you, is that the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing the opposite, it's intentional, they are bringing harm to themselves. They believe that they won't be injured because it's in the name of Jesus. In other words, they believe that they are receiving divine protection from Jesus, even though they are doing it to themselves. Why are they doing it? Because they wanted to prove this in the name of Jesus. Instead some have died. It wasn't a coincidence that they died, the poison killed them. It's called suicide. They proved the opposite of what they intended. They worshipped the name of Jesus (pbuh) and not the one true God, so Allah (SWT) put shame on them.

I believe they are putting God to the test, and don't believe that Jesus called people to handle snakes at church services.

The members don't actually believe they will not be injured or killed, though. If you read the articles carefully, you will note:

Churches that practice serpent handling tend to be wary of publicity. This desire for privacy stems, in large part, from negative media attention that inevitably follows the practice after injuries or deaths due to snakebite occur.

"There are over 100 documented deaths from serpent bites," said Hood. "In every tradition, people are bitten and maimed by them. They risk their lives all the time by handling them. If you go to any serpent-handling church, you'll see people with atrophied hands, and missing fingers. All the serpent-handling families have suffered such things."

"It's a misconception that these people believe they won't get hurt," Hood explains. "The Bible says to take up serpents, not that they won't be bitten. If they're bit, that's up to God. The issue is obedience to God. There's no magic power type of stuff. They know the reality of it because so many families have had people hurt and killed."

Junior McCormick has seen many serpent-handling bites, and experienced them himself. None of those experiences have deterred him from answering his calling. "Some people were bit, and I believe God was ready for them and their time had come," he said. "I was bit 14 times, by rattlesnakes, copperheads, water moccasins, and I never used anti venom�all I had was just Jesus. I've been bitten badly, but I'll go back the next week and take them out [serpents] again."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/pf/1926804.html

TG12345 wrote: People have done st**id things in the name of Islam and other religions too, Christianity is no different in that sense.

Rational wrote: Now you're saying that the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing "st**id things"? First you defend them and bring evidence to validate the "work they do in the name Jesus", referencing CNN, National Geographic and other sources. And now, you say they are doing "st**id things"? You need to make up your mind.

I didn't say I am defending them. I was showing to MahditheSeeker, who claimed he would believe in the Bible if he saw people doing what is in Mark 16, that there are Christians who handle snakes. I didn't say what they were doing was right.

I don't believe handling was meant to be done in church, I believe it applied to accidents, when Paul was bitten on the island. I also believe it applied to the early church for the most part.

I did show him that there are Christians who do handle snakes. That was all.

TG12345 wrote: you wouldn't be sinning by having your subject bitten because according to what Muhammad said, nothing would happen to him.

Rational wrote: Whether or not the messenger said this hadith,  an experiment won't prove anything because Allah knows you are implementing it by way of deciet. You are deceiving a human and putting them in harms way just to satisfy yourself. And I say "harms way" because it would be foolish to expect protection from Allah by way of deciet. Allah knows what you are doing. This is victimising a human being. Allah (SWT) would not be pleased.

You wouldn't be seeing if God protects you, you would be seeing if He protects His unsuspecting believing follower who ate 7 dates.

If the hadith is true, you wouldn't be putting that person in harm's way because as long as he had 7 dates, Muhammad said no toxin would harm him. There would be no victim, as long as Muhammad was telling the truth and his teachings really do come from God Himself.

TG12345 wrote: And if you want to make sure they do not feel any comfort or displeasure or even notice you put something in their food, you can use  botulism! It is odorless! Tasteless! Also one of the most deadliest toxins in existence... but according to what Muhammad taught it would have no effect on a person who had 7 ajwa dates.

Rational wrote: You sound like a pro.

Just trying to make the hypothetical experiment as pleasant as possible for the subject.

TG12345 wrote: You wouldn't be deceiving your subject in any way, you would just be adding an ingredient to a meal or drink. It is odorless and tasteless... and if Muhammad was right... completely harmless to someone who had 7 dates before breakfast.

Rational wrote: You're digging yourself a deeper hole.

How so?

TG12345 wrote: In regards to "lying" or "deceiving" your subject with the snakes, you could just say you were doing an experiment to show that Muhammad's words are true and accurate. After all, it's not like you would have harmed him or her in any way. If you use botulism, there is nothing to explain because if Muhammad's advice is true, it would be just another ingredient that wouldn't cause your friend any harm and they wouldn't even notice.

Rational wrote: As I said above, God knows what we are doing in the expense of someone else. It's like saying I'll vaccinate you against a virus and then, without you knowing, I'll infect you with it. It's a sin because I didn't take your consent.

Do you share every single ingredient you put into a meal or beverage when your friends come over? Do you give them a breakdown of every vegetable, meat, spice and liquid you used? Or do you just make them a good meal or cup of tea and if they or when they ask how you made it you tell them?

Why would you need to mention you added some botulism to the meal? According to Muhammad, it would have had no effect anyways.

Also, I take back what I said about not testing it on oneself, based on the ayah you provided.

(28) O you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly but only [in lawful] business by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves [or one another]. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful. (29)


A person who would allow him/herself to be bitten by a poisonous snake or to ingest some botulism would not be killing or even harming him or herself, since the dates would protect them. Allowing a black mamba to bite you after a breakfast of 7 ajwa dates would only be suicidal if Muhammad's advice was wrong.

Rational wrote: As said before, your 7 dates "challenge" can't prove anything.

If someone were to be dumb or cruel enough to actually carry it out on an unsuspecting Muslim who eats 7 dates in the morning, it would prove that Muhammad's words were wrong, because the person would get very sick and/or die.

Rational wrote: On the other hand, the pastors have proved that Jesus can't always protect them because they died.

They never actually stated that He would always protect them from the snake bites and injury or death that come with them. You haven't read the links I gave you, or you chose to ignore them.

Rational wrote: والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

You too.

Blessed be the Name of the Lord.



Edited by TG12345 - 12 January 2013 at 1:40pm

Mansoor_ali wrote:    To TG12345  I hope the following article will help you to understand the true meanings of eating seven dates.  Hadith, �Ajwa Dates and Science

Assalamuu Alaikum Mansoor Ali,

Thank you for the article. I will read it and write my responses to it in red.

Hadith, �Ajwa Dates and Science

Other day a person, seemingly a Christian polemicist left me an email, challenging me on something which he thought was really a big deal. He quoted the following Hadith:

Narrated Sa�d: The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates). (Sahih Bukhari)

And then hurled the challenge;

are you today ready to take this simple challenge and eat 7 Ajwa dates and then drink poison and survive ?

The response:

The unfortunate fact is that most people in our time think that just reading any translation of Hadith texts, they can lay hands upon, is quite enough to have a full grasp of it and they find themselves worthy enough to comment. The practice might have had some justification if Hadith -or for that matter any classical Islamic text- was in some dead language hardly known to even the followers of the religion as it happened with Judaism and Christianity.

A basic principle in studying any historical narration is to understand the environment and context in which it originated. While it may not be possible to find details as to when and why was some particular words were uttered, another reasonable way is to see the complementing narrations before looking to reach a conclusion.

Sa�d told of hearing Allah�s Messenger say, �He who has a morning meal of seven �ajwa dates will not suffer harm that day through toxins or magic.� (Bukhari, Hadith 5327 and Muslim, Hadith 3814)

�Aisha reported Allah�s Messenger as saying, �The �ajwah dates of al-�Aliya contain healing, and they are an antidote (when taken as) first thing in the morning.� (Muslim, Hadith 3815)

�Aisha reported Allah�s Messenger as saying, �The �ajwah dates of al-�Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.� (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

Al-�Aliya is the named applied to some villages a few miles east of Medina.

Narrated �Urwah: �Aisha used to order to make a habit of or taking in regular intervals seven �ajwah dates, in the state of fasting for seven mornings. (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba, Hadith 23945)

Now considering all these narrations it becomes clear that the benefits mentioned are for link to certain specifics.
1- It is about 'Ajwa dates from al-Aliya, a particular locality near al-Medina
2- The benefit is for eating them early in the morning breaking the night fast with it
3- It is for the one who eats them regularly as Aisha (RA) used to instruct people. Her instruction matters for she is one of the narrators of the Hadith in question.

So far, so good. According to this interpretation, those who eat ajwa dates from Aliya early in the morning while breaking the fast with it are people who Muhammad's words apply to.   

Now let me explain a few things:

"The Poison/Toxin": The word actually used is "summ" which means, poison or toxin. The problem is some people think it is about instantly killing poisonous stuff. However the fact mention in Hadith that it benefits when taken as the first thing early in the morning and on regular basis itself establishes that it is about toxins, which are indeed poisonous and harmful to the body. Also see the following evidence.

Al-Mawarid Arabic-English Dictionary Dar el-Elm Lilmalayin, Beirut 1995 p.642

Ibn Qayyim in his Tibb al-Nabawi writes: "For the people of al-Medina, dried dates are their staple like wheat is to other people. In addition, dried dates from the area of al-Aliyah in al-Medina are one of the best kinds of dates ... Dates are a type of fruit that is also used for its nutritional and medicinal value, being favorable for most bodies and for their role in strengthening the natural heat. Moreover, dates do not produce harmful wastes or excrement like other types of food and fruits. Rather, dates preserve the body wastes from being spoiled and from rotting, especially for those who are used to eating dried dates." (Healing with the Medicine of the Prophet, Translated by Abd el-Qader bin Abd el-Azeez, Dar al-Ghadd al-Gadeed, al-Mansoura (Egypt), 2003 p.121)

Here are a couple of more narrations,

Narrated Sa'd: I suffered from an illness. The Messenger of Allah �may Allah bless him- came to pay a visit to me. He put his hands on my chest and I felt its coolness at my heart. He said: �You are a man suffering from heart sickness. Go to al-Harith ibn Kaladah, brother of Thaqif. He is a man who gives medical treatment. He should take seven ajwah dates of Medina and grind them with their kernels, and then put them into your mouth.� (Sunan Abu DawudHadith 3875)

It is reported, though through a weak chain, that �Ali �may Allah be pleased with him- said: �And whoever eats seven �ajwa dates every day it kills every disease in the stomach.� (Kanzul Ummal, Hadith 28472)

These show that they have healing effect against heart ailment and problems of the stomach.
And we have scientific evidence that dates protect arteries and lower the risks of heart attack. Cholesterol that causes many heart problems itself is a toxin. Moreover some of the ingredients of the dates are protective against digestive system related problems, e.g. dietary fiber helps eliminate human intestinal toxic substances, researchers suggest.

According to the author, the word "poison" should be translated not as poisons but as toxins, which are harmful and poisonous stuff.

Muhammad prescribed dates for stomach problems and heart ailments. Hadiths 28472 and 3875 point out the benefits of dates for heart sickness and every disease in the stomach.

Hadiths 28472 and 4875, as correct as the first one is anyways (I don't believe that dates will kill every stomach disease- do you think they would make salmonella poisoning or Ecoli go away?), do not change the fact that Muhammad said that dates protect from all kinds of magic and toxins, or that he said that no toxin or magic can harm someone who has had 7 of them in the morning. He didn't say only cholesterol or digestive system problems, he said all kinds of toxins.

�Aisha reported Allah�s Messenger as saying, �The �ajwah dates of al-�Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.� (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592)

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html

5080 

 Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: He who ate seven dates (of the land situated) between these two lava plains in the morning, no poison will harm him until it is evening. 

http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080#5080

I changed my challenge to involve snake poison or botulism, which are toxins in the truest sense of the word. I don't believe that anyone, regardless if they eat 7 dates first thing in the day or not, would not be harmed by a black mamba or rattlesnake venom or botulism.

Also, does the scientific evidence the article presents show that dates protect against certain kinds of toxins when eaten first thing in the morning and on a regular basis only, as Muhammad said?

Magic: As to magic, there are two possibilities. If it is literally a reference to magic as it was and is known then we cannot actually say much about it in the light of modern scientific research. Western science has, to the best of my knowledge, only skeptical notions about it which do not have any real value. (We earlier discussed a similar case about the Evil-eye)

It may simply be a reference to some diseases caused by apparently unknown factors expressed this way especially taking into account the times in which the statement was made.

The word "Sihr" is so called as "it changes health and soundness to disease" (see E.W. Lane's Lexicon Book I p.1316) and in that sense it is simply a reference to the something causing ailment like the word used to imply toxin poison and is hinted to by the word "or" used in many narrations. This might be a reference to certain radiations that adversely affect human body. And we know certain of the ingredients of dates like Calcium, magnesium, Selenium, Zinc, Vitamin C etc. are helpful against radiations.

Interesting view. I don't really have any thoughts or reflections on the magic part.

Summary of the above:

The two things mentioned above are for dates in general and as clear from the Hadith reports the �ajwa dates from al-Aliya locality of al-Medina are even more beneficial especially in that particular environment.

With regards to toxins there is no doubt the dates are indeed curative. As to magic more research is possible however whatever is written above suffices to kill the skeptical notions about the Hadith. Those who doubt the Hadith have nothing to substantiate their view. We at least have fair amount of support in favor of our thesis.
The Hadith narrations say, 'ajwa dates from al-Aliya taken regularly as first thing in the morning breaking the fast -in spells of 7 successive days- is a cure against toxins, just as they are helpful as a preventive cure against heart and stomach problems.

If Muhammad said that dates cure against stomach problems and heart problems and left it there, I would have had no argument. However, he specifically made it clear that dates protect against all kinds of magic and toxins and that no toxin or magic can harm someone who had 7 dates that morning.

Snake venom is a toxin. So is botulism. So are a variety of other deadly things.

Seven dates first thing in the AM would not stop a person from getting harmed by either of these things.

LET ME TURN THE TABLES!

While the explanation above is quite enough for any ardent and reasonable observer, for the hate mongers from amongst the Christian missionaries I have a challenge on these lines. And the challenge is to drink the �any deadly thing� and stay unhurt. This is what the Bible promises putting the words into the mouth of Jesus �may Allah bless him.

�They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.� (KJV, Mark 16:18)

I always wonder how come missionary haters of Islam muster up the courage to talk about Islam. Don�t they ever turn back and have a look at their own house?

Ironically, I brought up this topic as I was "turning the tables" on MahditheSeeker who was challenging Christians to do the things Jesus talked about in Mart 16:18 and stating that those who cannot are true believers.

Acknowledgement: I am indebted to the invaluable help offered by brother Azhan Ahmad in bringing up this article.

Indeed Allah knows the best!

Indeed He does. Allahu Akhbar. Blessed be His Name

Nice talking with you. Allahma3k.

 
 To TG12345

 The Hadith doesnot imply that taking poison after eating seven dates would be completely harmless.In fact, doing this deliberately is considered as harming one�s self on purpose and this is forbidden in Islam. But we have to undersand that Hadith means that eating seven dates each morning reduces the harmful effects of toxicants. In order to make the process more effective, regularity with eating seven dates in the morning should be maintained. As our Prophet (PBUH) asked us to do.
 Narrated Sa�d: The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).(Sahih Bukhari)