Discussion and challenge to MahditheSeeker |
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TG12345
Senior Member Male Joined: 16 December 2012 Status: Offline Points: 1146 |
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LOL!!!! |
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Rational
Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Status: Offline Points: 190 |
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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
It's really not that hard. You say that Paul did not play with the snake intentionally. Meaning he didn't bring harm to himself, it was an accident, fair enough. But what I'm telling you, is that the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing the opposite, it's intentional, they are bringing harm to themselves. They believe that they won't be injured because it's in the name of Jesus. In other words, they believe that they are receiving divine protection from Jesus, even though they are doing it to themselves. Why are they doing it? Because they wanted to prove this in the name of Jesus. Instead some have died. It wasn't a coincidence that they died, the poison killed them. It's called suicide. They proved the opposite of what they intended. They worshipped the name of Jesus (pbuh) and not the one true God, so Allah (SWT) put shame on them.
Now you're saying that the "Snake-Handling" pastors are doing "st**id things"? First you defend them and bring evidence to validate the "work they do in the name Jesus", referencing CNN, National Geographic and other sources. And now, you say they are doing "st**id things"? You need to make up your mind.
Whether or not the messenger said this hadith, an experiment won't prove anything because Allah knows you are implementing it by way of deciet. You are deceiving a human and putting them in harms way just to satisfy yourself. And I say "harms way" because it would be foolish to expect protection from Allah by way of deciet. Allah knows what you are doing. This is victimising a human being. Allah (SWT) would not be pleased.
You sound like a pro.
You're digging yourself a deeper hole.
As I said above, God knows what we are doing in the expense of someone else. It's like saying I'll vaccinate you against a virus and then, without you knowing, I'll infect you with it. It's a sin because I didn't take your consent. As said before, your 7 dates "challenge" can't prove anything. On the other hand, the pastors have proved that Jesus can't always protect them because they died. والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته Edited by Rational - 11 January 2013 at 12:56pm |
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TG12345
Senior Member Male Joined: 16 December 2012 Status: Offline Points: 1146 |
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My Arabic is pretty poor, I took some lessons before going to the West Bank but that was more than 2 years ago. Care to share with me what that means? I think the first two words says "Assalamu Alikum", is that correct? what does the rest of the sentence say? I see the word "Allah" and the words "wa" several times. Is it Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh? May the peace, mercy, and blessings of Allah be with you ? http://islam.about.com/od/glossary/g/gl_salaam.htm May God's peace, mercy and blessings be on you also.
I believe they are putting God to the test, and don't believe that Jesus called people to handle snakes at church services. The members don't actually believe they will not be injured or killed, though. If you read the articles carefully, you will note: Churches that practice serpent handling tend to be wary of publicity. This desire for privacy stems, in large part, from negative media attention that inevitably follows the practice after injuries or deaths due to snakebite occur. "There are over 100 documented deaths from serpent bites," said Hood. "In every tradition, people are bitten and maimed by them. They risk their lives all the time by handling them. If you go to any serpent-handling church, you'll see people with atrophied hands, and missing fingers. All the serpent-handling families have suffered such things." "It's a misconception that these people believe they won't get hurt," Hood explains. "The Bible says to take up serpents, not that they won't be bitten. If they're bit, that's up to God. The issue is obedience to God. There's no magic power type of stuff. They know the reality of it because so many families have had people hurt and killed." Junior McCormick has seen many serpent-handling bites, and experienced them himself. None of those experiences have deterred him from answering his calling. "Some people were bit, and I believe God was ready for them and their time had come," he said. "I was bit 14 times, by rattlesnakes, copperheads, water moccasins, and I never used anti venom�all I had was just Jesus. I've been bitten badly, but I'll go back the next week and take them out [serpents] again." http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/pf/1926804.html
I didn't say I am defending them. I was showing to MahditheSeeker, who claimed he would believe in the Bible if he saw people doing what is in Mark 16, that there are Christians who handle snakes. I didn't say what they were doing was right. I don't believe handling was meant to be done in church, I believe it applied to accidents, when Paul was bitten on the island. I also believe it applied to the early church for the most part. I did show him that there are Christians who do handle snakes. That was all.
You wouldn't be seeing if God protects you, you would be seeing if He protects His unsuspecting believing follower who ate 7 dates. If the hadith is true, you wouldn't be putting that person in harm's way because as long as he had 7 dates, Muhammad said no toxin would harm him. There would be no victim, as long as Muhammad was telling the truth and his teachings really do come from God Himself.
Just trying to make the hypothetical experiment as pleasant as possible for the subject.
How so?
Do you share every single ingredient you put into a meal or beverage when your friends come over? Do you give them a breakdown of every vegetable, meat, spice and liquid you used? Or do you just make them a good meal or cup of tea and if they or when they ask how you made it you tell them? Why would you need to mention you added some botulism to the meal? According to Muhammad, it would have had no effect anyways. Also, I take back what I said about not testing it on oneself, based on the ayah you provided. (28) O you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly but only [in lawful] business by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves [or one another]. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful. (29) A person who would allow him/herself to be bitten by a poisonous snake or to ingest some botulism would not be killing or even harming him or herself, since the dates would protect them. Allowing a black mamba to bite you after a breakfast of 7 ajwa dates would only be suicidal if Muhammad's advice was wrong.
If someone were to be dumb or cruel enough to actually carry it out on an unsuspecting Muslim who eats 7 dates in the morning, it would prove that Muhammad's words were wrong, because the person would get very sick and/or die.
They never actually stated that He would always protect them from the snake bites and injury or death that come with them. You haven't read the links I gave you, or you chose to ignore them.
You too. Blessed be the Name of the Lord. Edited by TG12345 - 12 January 2013 at 1:40pm |
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Mansoor_ali
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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To TG12345 I hope the following article will help you to understand the true meanings of eating seven dates. Hadith, �Ajwa Dates and Science |
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TG12345
Senior Member Male Joined: 16 December 2012 Status: Offline Points: 1146 |
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Assalamuu Alaikum Mansoor Ali, Thank you for the article. I will read it and write my responses to it in red. Hadith, �Ajwa Dates and ScienceOther day a person, seemingly a Christian polemicist left me an email, challenging me on something which he thought was really a big deal. He quoted the following Hadith: Narrated Sa�d: The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates). (Sahih Bukhari) And then hurled the challenge;
The response: The unfortunate fact is that most people in our time think that just reading any translation of Hadith texts, they can lay hands upon, is quite enough to have a full grasp of it and they find themselves worthy enough to comment. The practice might have had some justification if Hadith -or for that matter any classical Islamic text- was in some dead language hardly known to even the followers of the religion as it happened with Judaism and Christianity. A basic principle in studying any historical narration is to understand the environment and context in which it originated. While it may not be possible to find details as to when and why was some particular words were uttered, another reasonable way is to see the complementing narrations before looking to reach a conclusion. Sa�d told of hearing Allah�s Messenger say, �He who has a morning meal of seven �ajwa dates will not suffer harm that day through toxins or magic.� (Bukhari, Hadith 5327 and Muslim, Hadith 3814) �Aisha reported Allah�s Messenger as saying, �The �ajwah dates of al-�Aliya contain healing, and they are an antidote (when taken as) first thing in the morning.� (Muslim, Hadith 3815) �Aisha reported Allah�s Messenger as saying, �The �ajwah dates of al-�Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.� (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592) Al-�Aliya is the named applied to some villages a few miles east of Medina. Narrated �Urwah: �Aisha used to order to make a habit of or taking in regular intervals seven �ajwah dates, in the state of fasting for seven mornings. (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba, Hadith 23945) Now considering all these narrations it becomes clear that the benefits mentioned are for link to certain specifics. So far, so good. According to this interpretation, those who eat ajwa dates from Aliya early in the morning while breaking the fast with it are people who Muhammad's words apply to. Now let me explain a few things: "The Poison/Toxin": The word actually used is "summ" which means, poison or toxin. The problem is some people think it is about instantly killing poisonous stuff. However the fact mention in Hadith that it benefits when taken as the first thing early in the morning and on regular basis itself establishes that it is about toxins, which are indeed poisonous and harmful to the body. Also see the following evidence. Al-Mawarid Arabic-English Dictionary Dar el-Elm Lilmalayin, Beirut 1995 p.642 Ibn Qayyim in his Tibb al-Nabawi writes: "For the people of al-Medina, dried dates are their staple like wheat is to other people. In addition, dried dates from the area of al-Aliyah in al-Medina are one of the best kinds of dates ... Dates are a type of fruit that is also used for its nutritional and medicinal value, being favorable for most bodies and for their role in strengthening the natural heat. Moreover, dates do not produce harmful wastes or excrement like other types of food and fruits. Rather, dates preserve the body wastes from being spoiled and from rotting, especially for those who are used to eating dried dates." (Healing with the Medicine of the Prophet, Translated by Abd el-Qader bin Abd el-Azeez, Dar al-Ghadd al-Gadeed, al-Mansoura (Egypt), 2003 p.121) Here are a couple of more narrations, Narrated Sa'd: I suffered from an illness. The Messenger of Allah �may Allah bless him- came to pay a visit to me. He put his hands on my chest and I felt its coolness at my heart. He said: �You are a man suffering from heart sickness. Go to al-Harith ibn Kaladah, brother of Thaqif. He is a man who gives medical treatment. He should take seven ajwah dates of Medina and grind them with their kernels, and then put them into your mouth.� (Sunan Abu DawudHadith 3875) It is reported, though through a weak chain, that �Ali �may Allah be pleased with him- said: �And whoever eats seven �ajwa dates every day it kills every disease in the stomach.� (Kanzul Ummal, Hadith 28472) These show that they have healing effect against heart ailment and problems of the stomach. According to the author, the word "poison" should be translated not as poisons but as toxins, which are harmful and poisonous stuff. Muhammad prescribed dates for stomach problems and heart ailments. Hadiths 28472 and 3875 point out the benefits of dates for heart sickness and every disease in the stomach. Hadiths 28472 and 4875, as correct as the first one is anyways (I don't believe that dates will kill every stomach disease- do you think they would make salmonella poisoning or Ecoli go away?), do not change the fact that Muhammad said that dates protect from all kinds of magic and toxins, or that he said that no toxin or magic can harm someone who has had 7 of them in the morning. He didn't say only cholesterol or digestive system problems, he said all kinds of toxins.
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.html 5080 http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080#5080 I changed my challenge to involve snake poison or botulism, which are toxins in the truest sense of the word. I don't believe that anyone, regardless if they eat 7 dates first thing in the day or not, would not be harmed by a black mamba or rattlesnake venom or botulism. Also, does the scientific evidence the article presents show that dates protect against certain kinds of toxins when eaten first thing in the morning and on a regular basis only, as Muhammad said? It may simply be a reference to some diseases caused by apparently unknown factors expressed this way especially taking into account the times in which the statement was made. The word "Sihr" is so called as "it changes health and soundness to disease" (see E.W. Lane's Lexicon Book I p.1316) and in that sense it is simply a reference to the something causing ailment like the word used to imply toxin poison and is hinted to by the word "or" used in many narrations. This might be a reference to certain radiations that adversely affect human body. And we know certain of the ingredients of dates like Calcium, magnesium, Selenium, Zinc, Vitamin C etc. are helpful against radiations. Interesting view. I don't really have any thoughts or reflections on the magic part. Summary of the above: The
two things mentioned above are for dates in general and as clear from
the Hadith reports the �ajwa dates from al-Aliya locality of al-Medina
are even more beneficial especially in that particular environment. With
regards to toxins there is no doubt the dates are indeed curative. As
to magic more research is possible however whatever is written above
suffices to kill the skeptical notions about the Hadith. Those who doubt
the Hadith have nothing to substantiate their view. We at least have
fair amount of support in favor of our thesis. If Muhammad said that dates cure against stomach problems and heart problems and left it there, I would have had no argument. However, he specifically made it clear that dates protect against all kinds of magic and toxins and that no toxin or magic can harm someone who had 7 dates that morning. Snake venom is a toxin. So is botulism. So are a variety of other deadly things. Seven dates first thing in the AM would not stop a person from getting harmed by either of these things.LET ME TURN THE TABLES! While the explanation above is quite enough for any ardent and reasonable observer, for the hate mongers from amongst the Christian missionaries I have a challenge on these lines. And the challenge is to drink the �any deadly thing� and stay unhurt. This is what the Bible promises putting the words into the mouth of Jesus �may Allah bless him. �They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.� (KJV, Mark 16:18) I always wonder how come missionary haters of Islam muster up the courage to talk about Islam. Don�t they ever turn back and have a look at their own house?
Acknowledgement: I am indebted to the invaluable help offered by brother Azhan Ahmad in bringing up this article. Indeed Allah knows the best! Indeed He does. Allahu Akhbar. Blessed be His Name Nice talking with you. Allahma3k. |
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Rational
Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Status: Offline Points: 190 |
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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
The arabic you see is the way us muslims greet each other. The "و" (the letter 'waaw') is "and". Why did you go to the Wesk Bank if you don't mind me asking?
Yes that's it.
And that's what it means.
I know we are seeing if this person would be protected, but because we're trying to see (test) this hadith, Allah might negate this protection, to put us to shame because our faith is weak, otherwise why did we need to test? We should have trusted the words of the messenger because that is what Allah told us. This is testing the validity of the messenger himself. Our victim is enjoying a strawberry cheese cake with poison. Allah knows this (as I've said several times already), and as a result, Allah might not fulfil this divine protection. Why should He (Almighty) prove anything to me or you, fully knowing that a human is being deceived for the purpose of testing the words of His messenger (pbuh).
Because you are insisting on deceiving a human into an experiment without their consent. Even if you are fully confident in your antidote ingredient (whatever it may be), you do not have the right to experiment on people without their prior knowledge, in anyway shape or form.
Exactly, a good meal without poison. Even though you might have full faith in the antidote, it's not a good enough reason to not tell them and do it anyway. It's still poison. And obviously you wouldn't tell them about this particular ingredient. No one would serve a dish and then say "oh I hope you like poison because I added some for you!". You wouldn't add it in the first place. The issue is - you're testing the validity of the messengers advice and doing it on someone else without them knowing. A muslim would not do this. Would you be fine for me to use you as an experiment (a guinea pig) without you knowing and then tell you "I knew it would work"? Ofcourse not. No one does because it's the way that Allah (Almighty) created us. So why would you be ok to experiment on someone else�. I'm repeating myself many times now.
We're taking one step forwards ten steps back. If a person (a fool actually) eats 7 ajwa dates for the sole purpose of testing the validity of the prophets words, then intentionally drinks poison: 1. It's irrational for a person to protect themselves from a danger for the purpose of bringing the very same danger to themselves. If they did, then either a) they are crazy b) they are careless (ie. suicide/self-inflecting injury/st**id etc) 2. Foolishly testing the validity of a messenger of Allah, instead of having unconditional faith in him 3. This fool is not sincerely seeking protection, this fool is seeking trouble For those reasons, it's unlikely that Allah would fulfil the aid to such a fool. They would most likely die and be forbidden from Heaven. And Allah knows best.
Exactly, we need someone that is cruel. Do you know anyone? Hang-on, now we're cruel because we're looking... This is what I mean, this experiment is impossible! Hence we can't prove anything.
I saw them in a church dancing with snakes and saying Jesus. To me that seems insane regardless of what they say. They are deluded. Hilarious http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ3YfT0Iu9M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzA9W1HtGd8 وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته Edited by Rational - 14 January 2013 at 4:59am |
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Mansoor_ali
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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To TG12345 The Hadith doesnot imply that taking poison after eating seven dates would be completely harmless.In fact, doing this deliberately is considered as harming one�s self on purpose and this is forbidden in Islam. But we have to undersand that Hadith means that eating seven dates each morning reduces the harmful effects of toxicants. In order to make the process more effective, regularity with eating seven dates in the morning should be maintained. As our Prophet (PBUH) asked us to do. Narrated Sa�d: The Prophet said, "If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Another narrator said seven dates).(Sahih Bukhari) |
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TG12345
Senior Member Male Joined: 16 December 2012 Status: Offline Points: 1146 |
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Hi Mansoor_ali, Salaam Alaikum. I understand this, but the fact is still if someone was bitten by a deadly snake or ingested botulism (willingly/knowingly or unwillingly/unknowingly) he or she would be badly harmed if not killed. That person would not "not be effected". Islam does indeed teach that harming oneself on purpose is a sin (as does Christianity) but according to the hadiths, a person who eats 7 dates every morning would not be harmed by toxins, so to ingest botulism would not be an act of self-harm, unless of course Muhammad was wrong when he said that no toxins will harm someone who eats 7 dates in the morning. Edited by TG12345 - 15 January 2013 at 1:22pm |
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