Marriage

abuayisha wrote: Matt has become quite adept at the "pivot" in discussions, turning almost anything into an us against them - east vs. west (and never shall the twain meet) screed.  Whether you like it or not Muslims have become, and are indeed citizens of "our" countries.  Muslims, like others, have a right to religious protection under the law and to not be subjected to xenophobia.

I'm sorry, Abuayisha, if I gave you the wrong impression. I firmly believe that we need to overcome the us against them paradigm in our thinking. I thought that many forum users find it rude when I give advice to how Muslims should run Islamic countries. I thought they had a valid point. So if the majority of Egyptian voters want to establish theocratic fascism (as seems the case right now) they did so by winning democratic elections. It hurts to see this, but it's the Egyptians who need to build their society the way they want.

Yes, Muslims have become German, French or American citizens. They enrich our societies and I have no problem with this as long they are fully committed to our secular system and the laws that are in place. Religious protection does not apply when religious laws clash with our constitutions and laws made by our parliaments. This has nothing to do with xenophobia whatsoever. This has nothing to do with racism either. This has to do with the protection of the foundation of our democracies.

It's actually the majority of German Muslims who feel harassed by Islamic radicals sponsored by Saudi oil money. It's especially German Muslim women who are threatened by ultra-conservative Muslims. We have a duty to protect the rights of these people and make sure our laws are being obeyed.

Honeto wrote that I have right to my opinion, but what is said above is Islamic understanding based in Quran and Sunnah. Your, mine or Tom's opinion does not alter nor move it.

Well, my opinion and that of the vast majority of German lawmakers does alter its application in Germany. Certain understandings of the Quran and Sunnah are not valid and Muslims should not be asked to follow them.

Qur'an 5:57 is not valid in Germany: "Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime." If a young Muslim woman decides to marry an atheist that is her right.

Qur'an 5:60 is not valid in Germany: "God has cursed the Jews, transforming them into apes and swine and those who serve the devil." If an imam in a German mosque said that this still applied today he would commit a crime, and be tried and punished. Anti-semitism and all forms of racism are prosecuted in Germany.

Qur'an 4:34 is not valid in Germany: "And those wives whose refractoriness you fear, exhort them, and avoid them in beds, and beat them (evict them); but if they obey you, seek not a way against them; verily Allah is ever Lofty and Grand." If a Muslim did this he would commit a crime and be tried and punished.

Qur'an 5:38 is not valid in Germany: "As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty and Wise." Same thing.

If Muslims claim today that the Qur'an is perfect and they support all the commandments in it, they clash with our laws. And we do have a right to be worried about this.


Edited by Matt Browne - 30 November 2012 at 3:32am

honeto wrote: One more thing Matt, if I may ask. Do you think God gave us rules so we follow them? or you think God gave us rules so we can bend and change them according to our thinking and needs? Hasan

Yes, and one of His rules is to seek knowledge. And seeking knowledge includes the capability to interpret sacred texts in a historical context. The Qur'an has three times as many verses urging Muslims to think than verses promoting blind worship. For this reason we no longer have slaves and no longer cut off the hands of thieves. And this is the case in most Islamic countries as well.

Faith doesn't forbid exploration. It's dogma that does. Dogma, by definition, is threatened by questions because it trusts that God can handle them. That's a God whose grace can be felt by curious individuals everywhere.

Recognizing God's infinite wisdom means acknowledging our own limited wisdom. So it's an act of faith to create societies in which we can disagree with each other without physical harm from one another.


Edited by Matt Browne - 30 November 2012 at 3:30am