Will Israel never stop?

Ron Webb wrote: Blake wrote: But Ron, Israel mistreating Palestinians , gives license to fire missiles into Israel without retaliation? No!  Absolutely not!  But this is not an either/or situation.  You don't have to choose a side in this.  It is logically possible to be critical of both sides.   I would also say the Palestinians have been mistreated by the Iranians who are using them in their Proxy war. Instead they could have been helping the Palestinians acheive economic prosperity with the same efforts.... teaching them to live in peace and prosperity which is what Islam is supposed to be all about. Indeed, and Israel could be doing the same thing.  If they really wanted to end the hostility, that's what they should do.  But I'm not holding my breath. When I'm talking about Tel Aviv being reduced to Rubble... I'm not beingg serious,... that's the point. That's how long it would take for anyone to stop the Palestinians from sending over their rockets. Basically never I think......... Yes, I understand that.  I just think it's important to keep reminding people of the asymmetry of this "war".  The Palestinians are not an existential threat to Israel. So....  why is it that Israel turned over the Gaza to the Palestinians in the first place?  They WERE trying to treat them like human beings.... I think. "Turned over"?  You mean gave back, after having invaded and captured it in 1967?  The Palestinians are supposed to be grateful for that? I'll agree with you though that this was a missed opportunity for the Palestinians to reciprocate.  There have been so many missed opportunities, on both sides. I think the problem is you got some Palestinians who truely want a Palestinian State and to exist in peace with Israel. Then you got the Palestinians who are aligned with Iran who want a Religious Caliphate including the ground under the Israelis AT ANY COST including their own. That's right.  There are moderates on both sides, and they need to reach out to each other.  More importantly IMHO, they need to stand in opposition to the extremists in their own communities and resist the temptation to retaliate.  That's going to be tough, especially when the bombs keep exploding in their neighbours' yards, as they undoubtedly will for some time. See, not much has changed since Adolf Hitler visited Jerusalem in 1938 to strenghen his Alliance with the Arabs against the Jews. The Jews were being exterminated from both ends..... is it any wonder the Israelis have the mind set they do? If they don't defend themselves they will no longer exist. Again, this is hyperbole.  Israel's existence is not threatened by the Palestinians.  It may be threatened by other nations such as Iran, but attacking the Palestinians only increases that threat.  It does nothing to reduce it.

It seems to me however that since before the summer when rockets were being fired into southern Israel, It barely made footnotes in the news. 

And now suddenly when Israel decides they will take no more, Anderson Cooper has his face all over the TV.  why is that? perhaps if they had made a big deal about the rockets being fired for many months.... it MAY have made a difference in international opinion. I wouldn't be supprised if there are parts of the Arab world where civilians are not even aware of rockets being fired from Gaza... or thay believe it is just a lie. It wouldn't suprise me one bit.

Now suddenly everyone is shocked that Israel has retaliated strongly. BUT, I do agree with you in that the retaliation by Israel will solve nothing.
This is true. It must take some greater action other than violence.

As for the Hyperbole, well ... you have to remember the Arabs were Allies of the Nasis in the war, and were recruited by them to kill jews in europe and hunt them down throughout North Africa as well as other parts of the Middle East. Do you think that mindset had no bearing on the Arab/ Israeli wars that followed? And even today the same mindset is there. Maybe those rockets are no big deal as many seem to dismiss them .... no real threat to the Israelis, but do remember those rockets are comming from Iran. It's only a matter of time before one of those rockets is loaded with a Nuke. Who is to say that is no threat?  its easy for us when we don't haev to live there.

And as to Jews aiding the Palestinians economically.... remember when They took over Gaza, they were given 3,000  green houses to which they could have grown vegetables or any crop ... paid for by American Jewish donors. These cost Millions of dollars.

They were stripped down and destroyed in days by the Palestinians... so I think that the thing maybe people don't realize is that the people there may be very difficult to get along with.

Maybe the real answer will have to come from Moderate Islamic nations who can somehow help the Palestinians shed the teachings of Hammas,
if that is possible.

Blake wrote: But Ron, Israel mistreating Palestinians , gives license to fire missiles into Israel without retaliation?

No!  Absolutely not!  But this is not an either/or situation.  You don't have to choose a side in this.  It is logically possible to be critical of both sides.  

I would also say the Palestinians have been mistreated by the Iranians who are using them in their Proxy war. Instead they could have been helping the Palestinians acheive economic prosperity with the same efforts.... teaching them to live in peace and prosperity which is what Islam is supposed to be all about.

Indeed, and Israel could be doing the same thing.  If they really wanted to end the hostility, that's what they should do.  But I'm not holding my breath.

When I'm talking about Tel Aviv being reduced to Rubble... I'm not beingg serious,... that's the point. That's how long it would take for anyone to stop the Palestinians from sending over their rockets. Basically never I think.........

Yes, I understand that.  I just think it's important to keep reminding people of the asymmetry of this "war".  The Palestinians are not an existential threat to Israel.

So....  why is it that Israel turned over the Gaza to the Palestinians in the first place?  They WERE trying to treat them like human beings.... I think.

"Turned over"?  You mean gave back, after having invaded and captured it in 1967?  The Palestinians are supposed to be grateful for that?

I'll agree with you though that this was a missed opportunity for the Palestinians to reciprocate.  There have been so many missed opportunities, on both sides.

I think the problem is you got some Palestinians who truely want a Palestinian State and to exist in peace with Israel. Then you got the Palestinians who are aligned with Iran who want a Religious Caliphate including the ground under the Israelis AT ANY COST including their own.

That's right.  There are moderates on both sides, and they need to reach out to each other.  More importantly IMHO, they need to stand in opposition to the extremists in their own communities and resist the temptation to retaliate.  That's going to be tough, especially when the bombs keep exploding in their neighbours' yards, as they undoubtedly will for some time.

See, not much has changed since Adolf Hitler visited Jerusalem in 1938 to strenghen his Alliance with the Arabs against the Jews. The Jews were being exterminated from both ends..... is it any wonder the Israelis have the mind set they do? If they don't defend themselves they will no longer exist.

Again, this is hyperbole.  Israel's existence is not threatened by the Palestinians.  It may be threatened by other nations such as Iran, but attacking the Palestinians only increases that threat.  It does nothing to reduce it.

Blake wrote: I think your putting the west in an entire negative focus ...

My intention is to put both sides in a negative focus.  There is plenty of blame to go around here.

Blake wrote: Ron , I agree with a lot of what you say,  but how long now have missiles been fired into Israel?

I honestly don't know.  About as long as Israel has existed, I suppose.  And how long has Israel mistreated the Palestinians?  About as long.

Not even close.   Have a look at Wikipedia's table comparing the deaths on both sides in recent history (and note that the data comes from Jewish sources).  Since 1987, there have been more than five Palestinians killed for every Israeli; and in the past decade the ratio is more like ten to one.

I don't see any European Country wanting to get involved.  Some one is going to stop them from firing rockets?  realistically ..WHO?

Who stopped South Africa from maintaining its apartheid policies?  Nobody; but it wasn't necessary.  South Africans just got tired of being a pariah nation.  And so would Palestine, eventually, once it becomes crystal clear that they are the aggressors.

One thing is obvious: the Israelis aren't gonna stop them.  Decades of history have demonstrated that.  On the contrary, bombing Palestine only increases Israeli casualties.

Unfortunantly the Jews will have to retaliate just to limit the ability of the Palesinians to be able to shell them.

Okay, how about this?  The Jews can consider retaliating after Israeli casualties begin to approach the Palestinian level over the last decade or so.

Or here's an even better idea.  How about actually treating the Palestinians like human beings?  They've tried bombing and blockading and invading and stealing their territory -- and oddly enough, that hasn't made the Palestinians any less hostile.  Like I said, it's the definition of insanity to keep doing the same things over and constantly expect a different result.  If you want a different outcome, try something different.

Edited by Ron Webb - 19 November 2012 at 6:58pm

Ron , I agree with a lot of what you say,  but how long now have missiles been fired into Israel? Even if tel aviv was reduced to rubble by rockets.
I don't see any European Country wanting to get involved. Some one is going to stop them from firing rockets?  realistically ..WHO?

how would someone stop them? by invading Gaza? by asking them politely to stop? No one would ever invade Gaza except Israel because they are the ones getting bombed. There can never be a blockade because Islamic countries will always support the shelling of Israel. They could take it for ten years without responding and the shelling would never stop, because no one in that region wants Jews there.

Unfortunantly the Jews will have to retaliate just to limit the ability of the Palesinians to be able to shell them. I don't think this is good either... and I don't know what the real answer is... I wish I did. The whole thing over there just botheres me a lot.