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CHRISTIANS:WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS?
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Mahdi The Seeke View Drop Down
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Points: 260 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahdi The Seeke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2013 at 4:35am
Originally posted by Placid Placid wrote:

Hi Mahdi

Quote: So u r a muslim? again you are using the Quran as the basis of your belief. your arguments do not make any sense. you cannot believe n the Bible and Quran at the same time. choose one.

Response: --- Since the angel Gabriel said that the Quran confirmed the former Scriptures, in 625 AD, --- and there have been no changes to the Scriptures or the Quran since then, --- I believe what it says.

I believe also what Muhammad was taught to say and to teach in Surah 3:
84 Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in surrender)."

Also these verses from Surah 4:
162 "But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee (Muhammad) and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practice regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.
163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms."


My question is? --- Are these all different people in the Quran, than the ones that are in the former Scriptures that Gabriel confirmed?


Placid



Response: --- Since the angel Gabriel said that the Quran confirmed the former Scriptures, in 625 AD, --- and there have been no changes to the Scriptures or the Quran since then, --- I believe what it says.
stop arguing then.
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Webber View Drop Down
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Points: 128 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Webber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2013 at 5:43pm
I'm trying to recall a time when Jesus actually said "I forgive your sins".
 
As I recall, Jesus, having a direct connection with God would have known when God forgave a sin and then could easily say "Your sins are forgiven".
 
We are all capable of forgiving the sins of those who commited them against us. That may not clear them with God, but I'm sure it would help. 
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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Rational View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Placid Placid wrote:

Actually, you can Identify me as a Muslim (surrendered one) if you like.

Assalam alaik Placid,

You are trying to prove that the Quran and the Bible, in their present form, are compatible and have the same message. You compare versus from both books that agree, but ignore all the others that contradict and disagree.

Muslims are told by God (SWT) that the Quran is the complete, preserved and final message, and it is a blessing from Him and we should be thankful:

"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." (5:3)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/15:9
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:82
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/41:42
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:85
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:19

Muslims trust in the Quran and consider it to be the only remaining, complete, unaltered, true word of God (SWT). Muslims cannot trust or rely on other books because they could have been altered. Muslims believe in the books revealed by the prophets, but not the current versions that are in contradiction with the Quran.

That said, it seems you agree with the teaching of the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and the Quran. Which implies that you believe that Mohammad (pbuh) was the last messenger of God (SWT) after Jesus (pbuh). And you identify yourself as being a Muslim.

For this reason, are you prepared to declare that you are a Muslim by saying the following:
"There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is the messenger of Allah"?



Edited by Rational - 08 January 2013 at 12:43am
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Placid View Drop Down
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Points: 236 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Placid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2013 at 4:10pm
Hi Rational,

Quote: You are trying to prove that the Quran and the Bible, in their current form, are compatible and have the same message. You use versus from both books that agree, but ignore all the others that contradict and disagree.


Response: --- Yes sir, --- I have said I could be considered a Muslim by the identification often used for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as in Surah 2:
130 Pickthall: And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.
131 When his Lord said unto him: Surrender! he said: I have surrendered to the Lord of the Worlds.
132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

And in some translations it uses the word, Islam, as in this one:
130 Yusuf Ali: And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
131 Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

Quote: Muslims are told by God (SWT) that the Quran is the complete, preserved and final message, and it is a blessing from Him and we should be thankful:

Response: --- I have no problem with that, but what is the actual reference in the Quran?

I should explain that some years ago, after what is called 9/11, there was so much negative publicity about the terrorists, that it put a black mark on Islam, --- but was it all justified? --- Before that I observed Muslims as sincere people, modest in dress, and supposedly of good moral character.

I had previously come across a Pickthall translation of the Quran where I worked and thought I would read it sometime. --- So, this was the time.
While I was reading it from a Christian point of view, I was amazed by the amount of history and compatibility I saw with the former Scriptures. --- On entering a forum similar to this one, I said I was interested in learning about Islam.
--- A Moderator at that time said, �If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.� --- So I did. --- I even made notes of similarities, and continued to study.

I learned that Al-Islam meant �The Surrender,� or �Submission,� --- and Muslims are �Surrendered ones.� --- So how can we compare that to Christians?

Rather than making this post too long, I will continue later. --- I appreciate your questions and will answer them, and hopefully we can continue discussing.


Placid

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Placid View Drop Down
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Points: 236 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Placid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2013 at 4:34pm
Hi Webber,

Quote: I'm trying to recall a time when Jesus actually said "I forgive your sins".

--- There is an incident in Matthew 9:
1 So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city.
2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, �Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.�
3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, �This Man blasphemes!�
4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, �Why do you think evil in your hearts?
5 For which is easier, to say, �Your sins are forgiven you,� or to say, �Arise and walk�?
6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins� �then He said to the paralytic, �Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.�      
7 And he arose and departed to his house.
8 Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men.

--- It may have been a special display �in His own city� --- as not so many believed in Him there.

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Rational View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Placid Placid wrote:

Quote: Muslims are told by God (SWT) that the Quran is the complete, preserved and final message, and it is a blessing from Him and we should be thankful:

Response: --- I have no problem with that, but what is the actual reference in the Quran?

Assalamo Alaik Placid,

Thanks for your reply.

Complete and Final:
"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." (5:3)

Preserved:
"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." (15:9)

But you didn't answer my question - In claiming that you are a muslim, do you believe in the two parts of the following sentence?
"There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is the messenger of Allah"?



Edited by Rational - 12 January 2013 at 4:51am
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Placid View Drop Down
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Hi Rational,

Quote:Thanks for your reply.
Complete and Final:
"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." (5:3)
Preserved:
"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." (15:9)

Response: --- Okay, 5:3 confirms that the religion of Islam means �Surrender unto God,� --- which I mentioned in the first response, where we identify this surrender with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. --- Then with the Apostles of Jesus, --- and this is the faith and �Surrender unto God� that I follow, --- as Jesus said in Surah 3:
51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

My first question is? --- If this is the Way that is straight for a Christian, can there be a straighter Way?

Your first statement was:
Quote: You are trying to prove that the Quran and the Bible, in their current form, are compatible and have the same message. You use verses from both books that agree, but ignore all the others that contradict and disagree.

--- So, While I am answering your further questions, I wonder if you will make a list of new laws written in the Quran that are not in the former Scriptures?

--- Because I just use the Bible and the Quran, I don�t read any links or hadiths, as only the revelations that God gave to Muhammad through Gabriel are inspired, are they not?
I have read that Muhammad said to his companions, �Don�t quote me as saying anything that isn�t in the Quran.�

--- So if you can first give a list with the references to new laws in the Quran that we should follow, we can start with that,
And then you can list some of the ones I ignore, �that contradict and disagree.�


Placid

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Rational View Drop Down
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Points: 190 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rational Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2013 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Placid Placid wrote:

...

Assalamo Alaik Placid,

Third time I'll ask you the same question. Remember I asked first so it's your turn to answer. If you're not comfortable with this question you can say so and we'll happily move on.

In claiming that you are a muslim, do you believe in the two parts of the following sentence?
"There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is the messenger of Allah"?

Edited by Rational - 15 January 2013 at 12:03pm
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