IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Trinity  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Trinity
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 14>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Angel View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2005 at 11:48am

Hi,

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Angel since you have posted a long response I will break each individual paragraph up into sections so that you can get the fullest understanding from my response. In one instance you said in the following:

  ��Why do you separate it, why do you think its two people, I think this is a mistake on muslims part, of course you are going to get 2 people / 3 Gods if you separate the concept and see it this way. Christians keep telling there is ONLY ONE GOD NOT THREE GODS but you never accept it (and its a bit of a contradiction when you also say they believe in one God)."

First off let me point out to you that there is no contradiction on Muslims when we say Christians believe in One God as we Muslims believe that God is the Creator of all people regardless of religious creed. Now that your point in that is refued we can move on.

Ok, but that is not what I see or hear, from many muslims.

Quote You mentioned if Muslims view the trinity we see this as literal (from the impression I get from this paragraph) that the persons existing within the trinity are persons other than God hence the impression of three gods. First off you never heard it from me that I considered the other persons in the trinity as "gods" you have made this mistake perhaps getting this impression from another Muslim, not me. However I did say that the essence of God's absolute being does not consist of two other persons. Reason? Because the essence of such an absolute being, such an infinite being is one because to say "Son" and "Holy Spirit" are contradictions to what Muslim Philosophers and even the Jewish Philosopher, Moses Maimonides says which is " Properties of absolute."

Quote Since we consider God as absolute and as one, if we say that he consist of two other persons unified under the absolute we are creating additional necessities to that absolute essence.

Yes. 

Quote We note that God has many qualities as the prime Artisan, the Creator, the source of existence.

Yes. 

Quote Even with these, these are only apprehensions through doctrinal understanding and in no necessitate the Oneness of God. For instance I may posses the properties of existence since I am a living being but it does not necessitate me being only one person which is Israfil get it?

Quote Qualities are superadditions aim to a person but do not reflect on the individuality of that person they are just qualities.

yes.

Quote For the Islamic perspective Son is denied under the impression of God's Sovereign state, and the power to not need a Son to do his will. God is not in need of a"Holy Spirit" even though God is Holy, God does not possess the properties of a spirit because he is the Artisan that wills "spirits" into existence. However the understanding of Holy Spirit comes from God's influence or will upon his creation. However true this is, being Holy and Spirit are additonal properties towards God to describe his will, or his presence which are not neededin Monotheistic theology.

If this is the islamic view, ok

You say God does not possess the properties of a spirit because He is the Artisan/Creator that wills "spirit"/"other beings" into existence. Ok but God is a incorporeal being is He not ? 

And you say that God does not need a Holy spirit but He needed Archangel Gabriel as messenger  (as you say Gabriel is considered a Holy Spirit) to visit Muhammed ? If God didn't need a Holy Spirit then why send / willed Archangel Gabriel to Muhammed, to impart His/God's wisdom and will for mankind ?

Quote Angel you obviously are not fully knowledgable of the Trinity so let me give you some brief background. The Trinity consist of principles in a type of symbolic Hierarchy. With Father, being Allah or the Creator as the Godhead, Son or Jesus as the intermediary and Holy Spirit as the will of God. All these compositions under the trinitarian principle exist as one unity under the person of God. But as I have explained before in the principle of absolution this violates monotheistic theology.

Your knowledge of the Trinity that you have imparted onto me, is slightly off the mark. This hierarchy is not of the Trinitarians' doctrine, which the Trinity has come from. It is believed that God is Father, God is Son, God is Holy Spirit but God is One, all existing as co equal & co existing, So where is the hieracrchy if all are equal ? 

What you have explained is the concept from the scriptures. But the Trinity is not in the scriptures. Anyway you would be right then for the hierarchy for that God our Creator is above all!, that God is the Father/Creator, Jesus as the intermediary -bringing the word of God into phyiscal existence (which is really no different to that of Gabriel giving the qur'an Muhammed) - the Holy Spirit - bringing the word of God into movement/animate, nature of God's will is shown, thru the actions of Jesus. 

So it said that if you follow Jesus then you are also following God's will and nature. Hence the saying: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".

The unity under the person of God, the unity is still there, everything is of God, it still one deity. So it doesn't violate monotheistic theology, if it did, then Islam has a lot to answer for to, for it has Allah, Archangel Gabriel who by the way is also an intermediary, Muhammed who acted in God's will & showed God's will a.k.a Holy Spirit to people/muslims. And also Muhammad was an intermediary. 

All these compositions are under the unity of God/Allah, and you can't understand the issue in Christianity? Shall I'll explain:

Allah = Creator

Archangel Gabriel = Messenger who gave the qu'ran to Muhammed  (as you say will of God, spirit of God )

Muhammed = who is also a messenger/Prophet who taught the qur'an to people/muslims

((Muhammed had 2 natures, like Jesus, his and God's which has to be also Holy Spirit, otherwise Gabriel would have possed Muhammed's body but I seriously don't think that is it.))

Holy Spirit = bringing the word of God into movement/animate, nature of God's will is shown, thru the actions of Muhammed.

And all of this is under the unity of God, everything is of God, coming from God, it is still One deity, Allah!

Israfil, are you going to tell me I am wrong in my observations here ?

Jesus taught the word of God (the word became flesh) and showed the way, God's way - God's nature/God's will/Holy Spirit. This doesn't violate monotheism. The belief in One God.

As I understand it, the Nicene Creed or the Trinity doctrine as taught by the Trinitarians, have it wrong, since they are coming from somewhere else, where I do not know (yet ) and not really from scriptures. But then again you should know, afterall you mentioned that you studied much of the Trinitarians.

Quote Again pesons other than God (Father, Daddy etc) are nothing more than additonal qualities of God that are not needed and are not logical.

I don't know, I thought I agreed with you.

I need to go and get sleep, I am not finished, so if you want to wait before replying you can do so.

Also I have a bone to pick with you, what you say about me, being confused "Funny how you stick with what still remains confusing to you" I am not confused person and I know what I speak of! whether what I speak of is right or wrong, to which I will try and correct, whether you disagree or not but that in itself doesn't mean I am a confused person. Nor am I taking certain things to justify my own beliefs this you are dead wrong! And also don't tell me that i am dead wrong about 'what makes up God also makes us up', do you even know why I said that? which is my own personal belief and that the essence of God is in all of us that bit I think is slightly inline with Christianity of the nature of God being in us that we choose to be in God's will or not.

Our views about God is different but it doesn't make me wrong! nor you but It seems you sit there and think you know God, what God can and cannot do, what He should posses or not, Because any other concept that arises you shoot down and say it can't be. Now don't you think you are limiting God if God is all powerful, knowledge, and will anything to existence.  

 

That said I'm going to bed the rest can wait.

Here is something on the Trinity to read and you do need to read all, really:

http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm

 

 
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
Back to Top
blond View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 30 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 218 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2005 at 12:19pm

Don't try to bend the spoon.... that's impossible. Instead, only try to see the truth...

And what's that?

There is no spoon.



Edited by blond
Back to Top
Nausheen View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Female
Joined: 10 January 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 4251 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2005 at 4:38am

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Hey Angel

Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Also I have a bone to pick with you, what you say about me, being confused "Funny how you stick with what still remains confusing to you" I am not confused person and I know what I speak of! whether what I speak of is right or wrong, to which I will try and correct, whether you disagree or not but that in itself doesn't mean I am a confused person. Nor am I taking certain things to justify my own beliefs this you are dead wrong! And also don't tell me that i am dead wrong about 'what makes up God also makes us up', do you even know why I said that? which is my own personal belief and that the essence of God is in all of us that bit I think is slightly inline with Christianity of the nature of God being in us that we choose to be in God's will or not.

There is one fight on the boards, which always sounds harmless to me. That is, between you and Israfil. Probably it is because I have known both of you for quite some time now.

I hope am not wrong

It is stated in the Quran, when Allah created Adam, He breathed His Spirit into him. This is something of Allah that is in all humans. However, this does not mean Allah in His entirity resides in humans. This means we have an essense of God, (which is not just a christian concept). It is this essense that exercises an upward pull upon us (for lack of a better term), or you can say it influences us to incline to good naturally, develops a desire and longing to know Him, and helps one experience a sense of peace in drawing near Him. 

Again, my two cents

Peace,

Nausheen

 
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]
Back to Top
Israfil View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Joined: 08 September 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 3984 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2005 at 12:30pm

My post will be small and not long as the first. Angel I don't need to really examine your post as you have said much, much that I agree and much I disagree. First off I'm not shooting your belief down as I mentioned my last post maybe you should review your belief as you mentioned in your last post (ref. post 3-4) you mentioned that "God is matter and energy." However poetic this example of God is, is not true in any form with God. Again the understanding of God is that God is unlike anything in this universe known and unknown nor is God composed of the things he willed (which includes matter and energy since these are elements in the universe that exist).

Second you keep allocating the Angel Gabriel with Allah and Muhammad as this is something that relates to the Christian trinity or as if something similar. You have to understand Angel, that the Angel Gabriel has sent messages to many prophets not just Muhammad. As I have mentioned before Angels are intermediaries under the notion that the mind of man cannot comprehend the absolute nature of God, this includes his being and language hence it is said in doctrine that he shows his "light" or his "essence." In the Qur'an there is a verse where Moses invokes God to show his person but God challenges Moses by saying that if the mountains don't crumble (mind you Allah uses MOUNTAINS for his point example!) he can see his glory. When Allah showed part of his glory to the mountains it crumbled.

My point is that Allah in respect with all I have said is not limited to what we say or do but this world limits our understanding of God. This is how God made this world full of signs and things to interpret to know his existence. In matters of revealing revelation God of course uses lower beings to communicate to other lower beings i.e. Angels. I hope you saw my last post regarding what these lower beings are. I also forgot to mention that Djinns and other nafs (souls) are also lower beings.

More importantly and I quote Abu Bakr "Muhammad was only a human" and I quote true believing Muslims when I say Jesus was (I use the past tense sense both entities as of now with the exception of Jesus are dead) prophets are nothing more than God's instruments to communicate to mankind who is not always cognizant of God. You are right Angel when you say the "essence" of God is in all of us as you have mentioned that we are apart of his will whether we like it or not. In this I firmly agree with you.

Angel apartly and unfortunately due to the words on a website I cannot convey emotional expressions to you so I am therefore limited with my words. But as I have mentioned before my intentions are not to shoot you down but if I disagree with you I will tell you nor will I sugar coat what I have to say, to do so only reflects my belief that you are an unintelligent being. I have to disagree with Sister Nausheen when she says we "fight" this isn't fighting. I have been in verbal debates with people who have "yelled" and used four letter words atr me when I prove them wrong. But my intentions aren't to prove you wrong save you mention something not in accordance to Islamic principles. However I don't doubt you believe in One God but I sometimes question that when you mention "physical properties" along with God I have to try to decipher what you mean sometime.

BTW when I said:

"Even with these, these are only apprehensions through doctrinal understanding and in no necessitate the Oneness of God. For instance I may posses the properties of existence since I am a living being but it does not necessitate me being only one person which is Israfil get it?"

My apologies if this sounded confusing. What I mean to say is that we as human beings possess the abilities of life. Along with this are certain qualities and traits that make us unique. But what is "unique" is not limited to one person but is a trait that exist in all life forms. All of these abilities and character traits we have do not signify our individuality but how we act upon our traits is what makes us unique and as one person. For example if Tim likes to draw and laugh we can take from this example is that Tim is both Artistic and humorous but how he acts on these traits is what makes him a individual.
Back to Top
Israfil View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Joined: 08 September 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 3984 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2005 at 1:18pm

In addition to my last post I wanted to add from my recent post was that Tim who is both Artistic and Humorous acts as an individual based on his behavior in acting out his qualities. If there was a likeness of Tim such as one who is Artistic and Funny both cannot possibly act out the same emotions since these are different entities. Tim cannot be just defined as just Funny and Artistic either because he is composed of other qualities that makes him uniquie such as possessing life, brain emotional faculties. In my conclusion when we define the trinity as I had mentioned before its quite possible to say that the nature of God, Father and Son can have the same essence as God since the nature and essence of God is different than the same essence as the Son and the Holy Spirit.

These elements in the trinity are nothing more than superadditonal qualities towards God. For the Islamic concept the attributes of god are different in respect to their quality but are unified under God through their essence since they emanate from God through action hence these qualities cannot be looked at apart from God as "individual" elements of God.

My presumption of the Trinity being nothing more than composed traits based on Biblical doctrine are nothing more than hypotheticals based upon the Trinitarian Principle. How the Trinity is applied from mainstream Christian appears to be what I have mentioned thus far--nothing more than traits of God not truths of God's essence. Again as I have mentioned in the other forum "How is Jesus both man and God?" I ask the question of the nature of Jesus in accordance to Christian theology how this individual, this man is God.

Angel you said:

That you haven't seen nor heard from any Muslims that Christians and Jews worship the same God as Muslims. This quite frankly is alarming since our doctrine states that the people of the Book worship the same God. Not in my exact words of course but the understanding behind Islamic doctrine is that regardless whether one is cognizant of the Creator Allah is still their lord. I believe since we are Abrahamic faiths its quite important to bridge the belief system so cordial dialouge can commence.

Angel many Muslims do not think like me nor do I think like many Muslims. I'm hoping that we can have a better understanding. You also need not to be so sensitive to what I say to you as it is only peer constructive criticism.
Back to Top
Angel View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2005 at 4:43pm

Hi, sorry for not being here, had some issues to deal with.

Will be back later tonight to post more of my response that I couldn't finish in one go.

Israfil, haven't read your reply thoroughly but you have go onto things that I haven't even replied to yet. And again you are wrong on somethings about me  .
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
Back to Top
Israfil View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Joined: 08 September 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 3984 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2005 at 4:46pm
I am always wrong....How about this I just keep my big mouth shut!
Back to Top
Angel View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2005 at 10:33am

Second half of my response. I'don't know if you're still interested. And by the way my first half took me 5 hours to do and a couple of days reading! so thanks for not examining it 

 

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Angel you said:

"Now is the essence of water different when it is in the form of ice/solid, liquid and steam ? This is also a trinity. Is water three different people or one? While there are three aspects to water it is still one enity, namely that of H20. While water can be in 3 forms it still is water, it is still H20, is it not?"

 

Angel my science major LOL

 

your welcome

 

Quote Water comes in three (CORRECT) forms solid, liquid and gaseous.

 

I know it as both terms  I think it is a given that both are acceptable.

 

Quote You mentioned ice when ice is apart of being a solid. You mention steam which is partially correct but the correct term is gaseous which is Hydrogen and Oxygen. Regardless, the point is though Water comes in three forms you are making the impression that water by itself is of one form.

 

'water' I think is not technically a 'form' it is a label applied to the liquid form, as ice is given to the solid form and steam is given to the gasous form. We have 3 forms that make up one entity "water" 

 

Why do you think I'm making water as if its one form?

 

Quote But if one views the molecular level of water its compositions consist of one or more forms which is two Hydrogen atoms and one Oxygen atom. Since to make water one needs both the gases its for our benefit to understand that the essentials of water are these two atoms because if by themselves results in just being a gas.

 

Ok, even here as you say there needs to be two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom to be water. Is it true that at a given moment that water can become all 3 ?  

 

Father, Son and Holy Spirit is One entity - God

 

Quote though we are slightly off topic my point is that water is a bad example because it needs both Hydrogen atoms and Oxygen atoms to become water. This is not the point you are not trying to bring up to defend your point in the case of the trinitarian principle because this is really a bad example. Unless, you are saying God needs the other persons within the trinity to become a unified being, if so then it contradict God's omnipotence.

 

You say water is a bad example, I say water is an ok example .

For your last sentence, I agree God doesn't need others to be unified - having 3 people to be unified, if this is what the trinitarians believing. Since you now more about the trinitarians, then tell me is it actual 3 people or 3 traits that are called personalities like: for me for instance have a shy personality and an outgoing personality etc but all is still me. If its the first - 3 people then I would say I agree with you that water is a bad example but if its the latter, then all three is God if my point above about water becoming all 3 at a given moment.

 

But from my understanding, according to scriptures, the trinity concept is still liken to water.

 

Father, Son and Holy Spirit is One entity - God.

Liquid, solid and gaseous is one entity - water.

  

 

Quote Angel said:

"Is a person three different people or one? We, humans, as individuals have three aspects to human being, it is still one enity one individual. We have 3 forms to being human while being one, being in Oneness with our humaness. (not sure if humaness is a word).��

Angel no offense but you have a unique and yet, strange mind

 

That's me

 

Quote because this paragraph made no sense.

 

well yes if you didn't consider the top section that you missed from the quote , which I have mentioned again to put all together:

 

""As for people, the mind body and spirit/soul. Now is the essence of people different when they are in mind, body and spirit? This is also a trinity. Is a person three different people or one? We, humans, as individuals have three aspects to human being, it is still one enity one individual. We have 3 forms to being human while being one, being in Oneness with our humaness. (not sure if humaness is a word).""

 

Quote However I will decipher these "codes" in your paragraph. As I mention before qualities have no barring on individuality because they represent impressions of the individual.

 

I wasn't exactly talking about qualities. I was/am talking about the three (I don't know if I should use this word) sections: Mind, Body and Spirit,, all three make up (=) the entity of 'human being'.

 

Mind - our concepts/ideas/thoughts/thinking/instructions.

Body - acts out these concepts/thoughts/instructions. (Our thoughts become our actions). words become flesh, we speak our thoughts etc and act out actions / movement. 

Spirit - is our nature, who we are.

 

Now I will put it in the Trinity, according to concepts in scriptures:

 

Father - the word - thoughts/concepts/instruction, coming from God.

Son - Jesus - the word becomes flesh, Jesus acts out 'the word', speaks the words of God, and demostrates how to live the way of truth. Still coming from God but Jesus is "no way" God nor like God, he simple provided the instructions from God. Jesus being the intermidary. 

Holy Spirit - (according to religious theology there is 2 natures/wills - our self nature and God's) God's will or God's nature, which ever one you want to use, now Jesus instead of acting out his nature, he acted out God's nature. And since this nature is of God, it is I believe considered Divine / Divinity and anything coming from and/or pertaining from God is of Divine nature which is considered Holy. 

 

Now if I was being Christian, believe in scriptures and adhere to it, this above would be, I guess actually believe in for me as it is accordance with scriptures, but I am not.

 

I do have my own thoughts, take on it for me alone and I am not even going to go there!     

 

Quote For example I have two hands and two legs and I have the quality of walking but I'm still one person. This only mean that my brains faculties possess the ability to walk through controlling other faculties within my body. I can also possess the unique skill or art, hence me being an artist.

 

Since we (I) are not talking about qualities, i don't think this applies.

 

Quote But my skill only shows the qualities I possess but it doesn't bare any knowledge of my own individual self.

 

well, if you add your spirit/soul it might tell your individual self  

 

Quote In respect to God if you saw the "Inadequate Language" forum you would understand this concept.

 

I don't remember reading

 

Quote God is unlike his creatures in every respect therefore we should not put God on the scale of humans.

 

Who's putting God on the scale of humans?

Yes I will agree that God is unlike his creatures and not on the scale of humans but then again we are suppose to be made in His image (I'm not talking looks) 

 

Quote God though wise, does not possess the attribute (or quality) of wisdom because what pertains to wisdom or to be wise in the minds of men and animals relate comprehensible things. How God relates to mankind is different how mankind relates to itself. Again these are superadditional properties of God.

 

I think I understand you here.

 

Quote Angel said:

��Ok

You saying that the Holy Spirit is not from God but from Gabriel ? If so,

I can understand that since Archangel Gabriel (supposdely) came to Muhammed, and this is perhaps why you see Gabriel as Holy Spirit, the One who spoke to Muhammed. (Aside question, even though the teachings came from God, did Gabriel came everytime to relay it?)   

Where does the spirit of Archangel Gabriel come from ?

As I understand it, the Holy spirit resides in all of us, it is that which gives us life, life is holy, it is God's breath that he breathes in us.��

Angel you have a unique mind again, but sorry to see that you have yet to understand Islam truly I suggest going to amosque near you to get the fullest impression of Islam. *Sigh* Let me explain. The angerl Gabriel is from God he is considered a messenger or the Holy Spirit, Spirit in this concept can be interpreted as "Will of God" or "Spirit of God" depending on how you look at it. God's will and impression upon his creation comes in various signs, signs that include angels as well. As you say the Angel Gabriel (supposedly, which is not a hypothetical but truth) came to Muhammad but questioned whether it was the Angel or God speaking to Muhammad. Because Arabic and Hebrew are Languages that can easily become mixed up in certain words in english such as Holy Spirit e.t.c. the understanding is that God spoke through the Angel Gabriel such as an intermediary.

Even when God spoke to Moses the Bible notes "The Angel of God in the burning bush" or "And Allah spoke to Moses through a veil" are symbolic references of some intermediary between God and man. Perhaps the understanding is that the mind of man cannot comprehend God in his entirety, nor could bare the sight of God, nor can comprehend the TRUE language of God. We should note that it does not contradict revelation that God uses intermediaries nor does it contradict God's ability to speak to man directly because we humans cannot identity what language God speaks in the first place. So in this respect we go with what revelation leaves us and our impression which is that God speaks to us in various signs, but more appropriately, through intermediaries. As you say the Holy Spirit resides in all of us, yes, the WILL OF GOD does reside in all of us because he willed for our existence and his glory is within all of life. PRAISE BE ALLAH LORD OF THE UNIVERSE!

 

I have nothing to say here, except that Holy Spirit usually pertains to God in Christianity.

 

Quote Perhaps the understanding is that the mind of man cannot comprehend God in his entirety, nor could bare the sight of God, nor can comprehend the TRUE language of God.

 

I will agree with this.

 

As for my 'supposedly' in brackets, its not truth to me personally, i don't believe in it thats why I had the word in brackets, I know that its truth for you , so you really didn't need to come back at me  

 

Quote Angel said:

I can see that but 'spirit' is different. and I'm not talking about ghostly or anglic spirit appearance.

u don't see because the concept of Holy Spirit in Islam is different like the concept of soul is not like that of a spirit. For reference see what I have mentioned above.

 

You might like to break that down for me, you lost me after 'the concept of soul is not like that of a spirit'.

Think I've been too much on this trinity issue, that my minds gone  

 

I understand that Angel Gabriel is from God, all Angels / and other spirit beings are from God and are all messengers, since they all come from God, they are also Holy spirits, they come from the Divinity of God.

Of course Gabriel is a spirit of God doing God's will - will of God. But that does not mean you can not ask help from the angels - they all do God's work or will.

I don't think I've misunderstood much but I'm sure you will tell me

 

Quote Angel:

"I thought also in the Christian sense, it is not the need of God to have a son but for the need of the world/humanity. That is why God chose Jesus to redeem and know God and the way. (as for redeem I have my own issues about that but sticking to what is meant here)."

Funny how you stick with what still remains confusing to you again you have a unique mind, LOL.

 

Yes I have unique mind, thanks  and if it wasn't for this unique mind I wouldn't be the unique individual that I am  

 

Now I told you earlier about this 'confusing' issue

 

Quote So as you say though God does not need a Son the world needs a redeemer like Jesus? Hmmm let's see. In the Bible when God destroyed Sodom and Gemorrah was Jesus needed? Did God use Jesus? In the Bible God told Abraham after Abraham insisted to God "What if there is some good people in this city that you plan to destroy?" (Note: not his exact words but in the Bible nonetheless) God told Abraham even if there is one person I would not cast my wrath on the city. Point? The point is that God didn't need Jesus to sacrifice himself to redeem Sodom and Gamorrah or needed Jesus to redeem the people of Noah. Throughout the Old Testament how the prophets explained to the common man was that for man to reconcile with God he must admit his faults and guilt and must wholeheartedly submit to God. It does not make sense that from the Old Testament truth why does man now need a redeemer to reestablish communication with God. If this is the case that means God's love is conditional, not true love because he says" The only way I'll let you near me is if I make a sacrifiece by killing my human self for you." It runs contrary to God saying "I'll forgive you if you admit it and mean it and make an effort to not commit trangressions again."

Let's use Ockams Razor which is the simplest explanation is usually the best, and in this which one would you choose? I'd choose the latter. It's much simpler and much more consistent with God in the Old Testament and the Qur'an. Because in essence regardless whether the sins of man are redeemed in Christian theology man still has the will to sin again so its quite pointlesss to redeem what can be a perennial sin.

 

Hey, I never said that I had all the knowledge/understanding  

What you say is why I don't really believe.

 

All I can say, God had a plan ? that's why He never sent a person like Jesus or Jesus himself to Sodom and Gamorrah, and Noah and etc. And anyway God destroyed (supposedly) Sodom and Gamorrah for what they did, so why whould God Send Jesus or a person like jesus ?

People at Jesus's time obviously did not need to be destoyed.

 

I don't know enough here in this section, all I know is that God chose Jesus at the particular time He did.

 

And honestly I don't understand the redeemation, redeem from what? I don't believe in the original sin.

 

This Ockams Razor you mention, I don't know of it.

 

Quote Angel said:

The Father who is God - our creator. The son to me is not the son literally from God as you think Yes its meant for Jesus, he taught the way the truth, God spoke to Jesus. (Didn't Jesus say he was God? and say I am the way the truth, a small factor that muslims seem to over look when discussing the trinity) But also The Son is US, God's creation, humanity. Jesus represented who we can be of the highest level. And as Jesus is a son of God yes I can understanding why the 'Sonship' is there in the trinity, as said He did show us the way. The son is God's way. The Holy Spirit - life/energy that which resides in all of us including God and all other creatures. The essence of God is in all of US, what makes up God also makes us up.  

 

I must admit some of my personal concepts have slipped in here but... it seems after checking more into the trinity and from scriptures I'm not that far off but far enough and as said I will not go there.

 

Quote Angel with every passing paragraph you seemed more and more confused even though you try to make a logical defense for the trinity.

 

Why is it me that I'm confused

Have you ever thought that you don't understand me instead of I being confused!

 

Quote The "Son" in the trinity is meant to be an essence of God. By Jesus being that word and God both (See ref. John 3:16) it was not intented in the council of the Nincene Creed that "Son" was also meant to mean humanity as well.

 

And the Nicene council didn't do that!? interpreting based on their views. SInce I've been looking into it, it seems that the Trinity doctrine is false.

 

Quote You are just interpreting based on your own views since, of course your not religious nor belong to a religion.

 

And so then I cannot interpret then?? what's that got to do with the price of fish?!!

 

Quote Please, if you plan to make a defense on a religious principle in which you, yourself are no an adherent of you should read on its history.

 

Thanks for the tip

 

Quote You are also DEAD wrong to say what "makes up God, also makes us up."

 

Actually I'm going to make a new thread and put my response there, this has nothing to do with the trinity

 

Quote I thought you and I would discuss your questions regarding Islam through email but it appears that you have shown that you'd rather discuss here.

 

Well, I really didn't have any questions about islam here and we weren't discussing islam alone we were discussing the trinity mostly. I posted what I come to know about the Trinity in Christianity and perhaps in my words there would be a better understanding, I don't know if I did this or not. When reading and going over my first response, i didn't like it and so now it is better.

 

Also I wasn't aware I had to go by email only, the use of email was for a discussion we had a while ago and for personal stuff because that is what you wanted, i'm quite happy with the boards. I did say in an email I will give you a copy of my revised/questions post as well as post it here as I want others to join in. If I am going to pose to you personally about something I will use email. I also don't see the sense when you are in discussions publicly that I need to shift to email. If you need to or want to explain to me something that you don't want to on the boards, you know you can email me   

 

And this second half took me like 4 hours!  
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 14>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.