Interracial relationships

Abuayisha Wa' Alaikum Salaam,

As I understood from what you say the preventitive measures that many cultures take is to safeguard their children from the inclination of the sins of the world most notably Western socieities as you mentuion. Ok, this perhaps is understandable. But brother what you perhaps maybe blind to see is that there is a difference in what you've stated and what I've stated. I'm merely talking about the philosophies of these cultures (Those who do not live in western society) who imput in their children the stigmas of individual cultures not nationalities.

When I made the analogy of the Pakistani father telling his young daughter ( or son) to not marry another of their culture my intent was to clearly state the problem of the philsoophies of the individual not the culture per say. Yes I may state generally what I find to be a problem but let's get something clear when a man tells another his opinion on the world it is just that his opinion. Having said that let's look at some of the stuff you said brother and to get points across clear I wil dissect what you say (No offense):

>>>Brother, speaking from the heart, the problem as I see it, is that never before in the history of Islam, have we had so many Muslims choosing to live in Western societies. You therefore have Western converts meeting Asian girls, and liking them. <<<

Brother you sound as if this is a problem! I believe us "Western converts" (I would use the more politically correct term "reverts" as this is the nature of humans who recognize again their primordial faith). I find that those "converts" who meet their loved one in Islam within the faith and is of another culture I see no problem with that. As Allah has stated in the Qur'an that he has made us "various nations and tribes so that we may know one another." So again what is the problem with this? Oh maybe if we continue you might explain better as you said:

>>>The parents of these girls are concerned for their girls in these societies, and for reasons that I'm sure you would agree. The fact that families desire for them men from their own culture makes perfect sense to me. <<<

Ok let's get something straight you're telling me because of Western society a father of perhaps Pakistani descent may not want his daughter marrying someone of a different culture because of society or the individual? You tell me. Now if a father is worried about his daughter getting involved in the sins of society then he has failed in his understanding of fatherhood.

1) A father cannot control every action of his child

2) He his only responsible to the point of a child to an adult establishing his/her own independence therefore his opinion only goes so far when it comes to social matters. Of course nothing beats fatherly wisdom but an adult male/female will ultimately make their own decisions.

Brother, Father of Ayisha! I would accept the fact that you would say it preferable for a father to wed his daughter to someone of his own culture for cultural preference but to say because of western society is pointless no offense. Society which is everything but Islamic she be understood with the preservation of character and the correct knowledge to battle some of the sins in such a society. Therefore in light of this a father telling his child to not marry another because of western society/or because western soceity is multi-cultural is not a good father instincts. Now if a father states that he would rather his Son/Daughter marry because of cultural preference then that's fine.

There is nothing wrong with some compatibility, but if you look at this more deeper this is why we have cultural divisions rather than unity in the Islamic community and no I disagree with you brother no all Muslims acknowledge this ever read up on the Sundan disaster?

>>My dear brother, there is life as we wish it to be, and life as it is. Most marry from their own people. If you are desire a girl from another culture or race; I have no problem with that. I simply would not like you are meeting my daughter at school or work, flirting and wooing her. Don't come to me after you are both already in "love" seeking my permission for marriage.<<

Brother with all due respect to you you have nothing to worry about! I do not "meet at work" nor do I "flirt" I may seem charming and have been said to be extremely handomsome  but that is not my character besides I'm single and too busy with school! In addition to what you said in the latter portion it would be said for such an intelligent man as yourself to deny another young man, with good intentions to deny him because he may not be suitable to you culturally. I cannot stress the importance of the prophet's last speech when we says that no culture is better than the other save those individuals who do good deeds.

As Rev. Martin Luther King said "I have a dream that my children will not be judge by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." To me those are elements of Islamic principles many individuals in our community lose sight of and you I'm sure agree to what I've said here thus far. Brother as you said nobody knows the good intentions save Allah so therefore why would any man deny another y oung man the opportunity to share his life with another (of a different culture) because the father may not know his intentions or his culture? Has humans today become that ignorant that we care more about cultural compatibility than about individual happiness? If your daughter didn't find any compatibility then ever thought maybe she wouldn't have chosen this prospective husband? Not saying you in particular brither but this question is general.

I agree that its important to have some compatibility culturally because both parties can share their similar experience sin life and can enjoy those particular celebrations in that culture. But again to deny another person solely because he isn't from that culture or because he is from the U.S or from a Western society is not (in my opinion) internal Islamic wisdom. Islam calls for cultural unison therefore our philosophies must be align with:

1) Is the prospective person Muslim and strives (not perfect) to get closer to God?

2) We Muslims always ask this most common question: What is his/her intention? Well for one I would assume marriage. But more importanlty on this matter the man's response would be to meet his other soul in his Iman. Second to stregthen his faith in Allah by sustaining a family. 3) That he will have children and to continue his/and his wifes legacy to raise them fairly.

3) Asking the your daughter/son the question: Does he/she make you happy? Are you willing to struggle with this person? If I give you away will you promise to love him/her and cherish their imperfections?

So on and so forth.....

Alhamdulilah I should be married by now but Allah has much better plans for me and I pray that this what I've written here thus far pleases him Amin!

Well, I don't believe that "a lot" of Arab and Pakistani girls marry outside their culture, certainly a few do.  Opposites attract; nice clich�, but as you are finding, the reality on the ground is quite different - and understandably so.

Yes it is a nice cliche you think so too? No a lot of Pakistani and Arab girls don't marry outside their culture but some do at least in California where I live. Some come from Muslim families and date and some come from non-Muslim families and still date or hook up with others from different cultures. I agree the reality on the ground is different in some areas yes I agree and in some cases is understandable. But is it understandable that parents instill such inclusive values in their children using cultural stigmas? No.

I challenge any parent her eor abroad the reason for this and I can give them 99 (Islamic references of course) on why this isn't so. You know brother I'm 23 years old and I haven't lived live as long as many here but what I do understand is growing up in a single parent household I've seen my mother be involved with different men ( as far as character). Of course majority of them were African-American but one thing she told me before she passed was that regardless no matter what person you meet be it black or white or of another culture as long as they make you happy and are faithful to you and vice versa then it all good. The problem with many cultures from the Middle and Far East is that there is an unwillingness to adapt to another different culture.

Because of this maybe many still instill these values of culture endogamy in thier children. In my family no matter who you are and if you are my wife my family will treat you like family. Maybe this is why we in the U.S is the most multicultured in the world and perhaps this is why we have many social benefits.

Apologies sister Jenni what you mentioned earlier about those individuals who bleach their skin is nothing new. In America there used to be a system called the "brown bag system" which if a person enters a room whose skin is darker than a brown bag (or is as the same color as the bag) they were to eat or sit in the section where "colored people" used to sit. Now in the wold we live in today the color "black" or of any dark skin color was seen as evil or of the devil. This was nothing new when the prophet came in Arabia. Even Abu Jahl called Bilal "son of a slave woman!" no surprise there. Now we come to people bleaching their skin to look whiter! nothing new there.

The ethics and philosophies of Islam is not ingrained in the Ummah of today because culture prevails. culture has twisted the minds of so many people that we have those who justify their own prejudices using Quran and some go to the extent in making up things to justify their own prejudices. A friend here (And you know who you are) said I'm too young and eventually my views will change. I DONT THINK SO! When I was 15 my views about the world didnt change perhaps my views now and from then have perhaps added a few more thoughts.

I don't think I'm too young for this issue this should be an issue we should not allow such an issue to prevail because this is how life is. To me any individual here or abroad says "This is how life is" has given up. I choose not to say this is how life is. So many here love to talk negative about the west and even though the west has its history and share of racism at least there is education and appreication in our school systems of cultures and at least there is some celebration of our diverse society unlike our so-called egaliatarian countries (Home of the beloved prophet mind you) saudi Arabia and other countries bent on criticising the U.S

Lameese excellent point,

But the problem here in the Muslim community is that this problem is acknowledged but is not discussed openly even among the so-called world's best scholars. Yes the stigmas and prejudices of other cultures does start at homes and in those environments that is what I acknowledged before. The problem I have here is that this is not a worldwide problem for other Muslims. Another problem I have here is that countries such as Saudi Arabia Pakistan India etc etc If I'm not mistaken do not teach cultural sensitivity along with the Islamic cirriculum. My thing is how can we created a doctrine of understanding between our respective culture inside the Islamic unmbrella?

We are the most diverse religion in the world and even though we acknowledge this there is nothing which appreciates that save the Qur'an. There are no scholars out in the open that discuss this matter and yes even though it may sound redundant and yes even though its Islamic sense that there are no cultural barriers in Islam millions upon millions of people are ignorant of this because cultures from the Mid East to Asia breed a different philosophy.

As I mentioned the woman of Arab descent whom I was going to marry told me (when she broke it off) that Allah said in the Qur'an that Arabs were to only marry Arabs...LOL now I hope Allah has mercy on her soul as she just blasphemied the Qur'an. But this type of mindset is not uncommon. We as a community do not talk about the importance of interracial marriages. To me I think these breed more of an understanding and unity among cultures than marriages that are not interracial. Bro Abuayisha quit just after a few post in this discussion. Though I give congratz for ladting thus far many cultures who breed ethnocentrism would not give this topic the time or day.

Sister Lameese there are excuses for this (meaning excuses for cultures not wanting to marry outside the culture).

1) First excuse is interracial relationships can create confusion

2) Interracial relationships are difficult to maintain

3) Interracial relationships are difficult because the two parties come from two different backgrounds and thus its more simpler to marry within one's own group.

To answer to 1) Interrcial relationships do not create confusion. In matters of children both parents acan discuss with the child the importance of both cultures. Also the parents can make the child feel a sense of belonging to both cultures not just one. It's up to the parents to teach the child this.

2) Interracial relationships are difficult to maintain if both parties are unwilling to compromise. If one party is willing and the other unwilling then in any relationship it wouldn't work. If both parties love each other and are willing to struggle in this matter together no matter what then this is not difficult its called UNDERSTANDING.

3) The same here is as above. Because one may come from an Anglo family and the other from a chinese family doesn't mean both can come to a point where both can partake in the festive of both cultures. This can create an appreciation of the foreign culture if one gets involved. Even if the foreign culture is not agreeable at least find some common ground. Not all human tribes and cultures are totally dissimilar.

Laziness and ethnocentrism and prejudice are the three components that plague our Ummah of today. We will never get over this until we (as sister Lameese states) change ourselves and our backgrounds. In matter sof choosing our life partners I believe culture should be the last thing in our minds. Sure we want compatibility but most important we want an individual who we feel will make us happy and can respect and maintain a family. If the first thing that comes to mind is whether this individual is Pakistani or Arab then we as parents, potential parents, hopeful parents have failed in our Islamic mindset.

We shouldn't think this way because as the prophet mentions that our distinction in the eyes of Allah comes from our deeds not our cultures.