Tanakh vs. NT - Confirmation or Contradiction?

Here's what you've been waiting for.  I've had to cut out your "entertainment fluff and summarized your few week points below in bold type.  There were a few lines of yours that I posted to show how week your "intelligent posts" really are.  They have doctors who can treat people with your kind of logic.  Well, here is my long awaited response.  Have fun with it.

Here, IslamisPeace, is a summary of the ridiculously pointless arguments you are making to what I am saying.

Jack:  The elements of the Holy Trinity are present in the Tanakh:

Isla:  You didn�t you prove that these "elements" point to a triune God. 

Jack:  I said that the Holy Trinity is a term designed to summarize what is already in both the Tanakh and the NT.

Isla:  Yet it is never explained in the Tanakh and not even in the NT!  (IslamisPeace, it is so not necessary for the Tanakh to explain the Holy Trinity for the Holy Trinity to be present in the Tanakh.  This sudden requirement of yours is a pathetically irrelevant attempt to make me look like the buffoon that you keep proving yourself to be.  For next I will quote you giving the exact question of our discussion which is on topic...)   The question was whether the trinity is present in the Tanakh. (see?)  You have not provided that proof as of yet, only the Church's interpretation of those verses.  (I have, but you refuse to acknowledge it, as your words that follow clearly show)  I have ignored your pathetic attempts... to answer the question.  (And this, my open-eyed, intelligent discussion buddy, is how you deal with evidence you don�t want to hear.)

Jack:  I researched out Jewish beliefs about the Holy Spirit and found that Jews call the Holy Spirit "Shekhinah," which means "a manifestation of the divine presence."  I don't see anything in this definition that even resembles a created Spirit.

 
Isla:  I provided a reference from a Jewish source that states clearly that the Holy Spirit was created.  Are you telling me that the "Jewish Encyclopedia" is not a "Jewish" source?  Come on, Jack.  Seriously? (Did I say that the Jewish Encyclopedia was not a �Jewish� source?  Grabbing at smoke again, are we, IslamisnotPeace?)

Now, IslamisPeace, I am going to give you a thorough response.  I�ll use the Tanakh and the NT to show that the two are not in conflict as the title of this string of posts suggests:  Tanakh vs. NT.  I�ll also bring in quotes from your precious Talmud, which you are so quick to make appear to contradict me � it does not, as I have so clearly shown from its own pages before.

Your first assertion: 

The Talmud identifies the Holy Spirit using words that show it to be synonymous with wind.  This means that, like the wind, the Holy Spirit was created.

So, IslmisPeace, you are saying that the Holy Spirit is synonymous with the wind per the first chapters of Genesis and throughout the Tanakh.  And since the wind is created, so also is the Holy Spirit.  Next, you say my assertion of Shekinah being the Holy Spirit in Judaism is therefore false.  You suggest that most of my evidence comes from the Catholic Church and the NT and is therefore inadmissible evidence in this discussion.  (even though the discussion is about comparing the NT to the OT [Tanakh])  Let�s look a little more closely at the Tanakh to see if you are so correct as you imagine yourself to be.  You will see that what I am saying about the Holy Spirit, and indeed about the Holy Trinity, is not my own interpretation.  You will find that Jewish and Christian beliefs fit �hand in glove� � it is you and your Muslim beliefs that just...don�t fit.

The early scribes (later called rabbis) added Shekinah in biblical verses where the verb shakhan is used in relation to God. Shakhan literally means "to dwell" or "to live with", or even "to pitch one's tent." The word Shekinah means the God-Who-Dwells-Within.   The Israelites began to realize this quality of God primarily after the destruction of the Temple of Solomon in 587 BC, especially as it proffered hope to a people lost in bitter exile. To console an Israel in Diaspora, the comforting, forgiving and loyal presence of the Shekinah emerged in their awareness. The Talmud, which is the Jewish Authority you claim contradicts my assertions, IslamisnotPeace, says: "They were exiled to Babylon, the Shekinah with them. They were exiled to Egypt, the Shekinah with them." The Tanakh says in Lamentations 1, 5, "Her children are gone into captivity," and immediately after (1,6), "From Zion her splendor is departed." The use of "splendor" is also one of the ways to describe the Shekinah. Other terms referring to the Shekinah are "the glory" and "radiance". The shekinah was present in the cloud by day and pillar of fire by night that led the Israelites through the Sinai wilderness.

The Shekinah eventually became an interchangeable term with the Holy Spirit in Judaism, which was eventually carried into Christianity through Jesus to his Apostles.  The Shekinah is often pictured as a bird or dove.  In Chrisianity the Holy Spirit is seen as the Advocate, Guide and Comforter (John 14:16-26, and Acts 9:31). This is a logical extension of the similar rolls played by the Shekinah in the Babylonian Captivity and the Slavery in Egypt.  There is an even more direct connection to the Hebrew tradition of the Shekinah as St.Paul. the former Pharisee, stresses the indwelling nature of the Holy Spirit throughout his famous passage in Romans 8:8:  �But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you.�  There goes your Muslim accusation from another string that St. Paul hijacked the Christian faith.  You see, St. Paul was simply referencing what was already a present understanding of God in Judaism which had been realized by the Jewish believers more than 500 years before. 

The wind you referenced from the first chapters of Genesis was not the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was definitely present in that wind.  This is why one can say that the Holy Spirit was over the waters during that day of creation and be right on about it.  About the wind not being the Holy Spirit, 1 Kings 19:11 reveals to us that though synonymous at times, yet the wind and the Holy Spirit are not the same things:  1 Kings 19:11 ¹¹ The LORD said, �Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.� Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.�  From this passage we see that the wind, though not being the Holy Spirit, can contain the presence of the Holy Spirit, or Shekinah.

Though not the same thing (wind and Holy Spirit) yet the fact that they are synonymous is recognized by Jesus when he uses wind to refer to a quality of God�s Holy Spirit (indwelling presence) in John 3:8 where he is speaking to Nicodemus, �The wind (referencing the Holy Spirit) blows where it chooses...�  The meaning implied by this statement is that the Holy Spirit will serve all peoples, not just Christians or Jews.  St. Paul and Jesus were right in sync when St. Paul spoke of the same thing using different verbiage in Galatians 3;28, �There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave and free, there is no longer male and female;  for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.�  This has always meant, as context will tell you, that as we all have the Shakinah in us through Jesus, we are all as one as the Shakinah (Holy Spirit) which unites us is one.

In reference to the Holy Trinity, it is well established that both Paul and John frequently equated Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit as seen in the Romans 8 passages and in the Paraclete passages of John (chapters 14-16).

In conclusion on this point, I�ll present a little summary of all the appearances of the Holy Spirit (Shekinah) in the Tanakh.  The Shekinah (Holy Spirit) was present in the burning bush with Moses, in the pillar of fire by night and the pillar of smoke by day that protected the Israelites from Pharoh, then guided them through the desert.  The Shekinah (Holy Spirit) was present in the cloud that rested on the summit of Mt.Sinai when the Ten Commandments were given to Moses, and the Shekinah was present in the cloud that occupied the Holy of Holies in the Meeting tent built by the Israelites under Moses to house the Ark of the Covenant.  The Talmud teaches that the Shekinah is everywhere.  Observing Jews have a saying that the Shekinah (Holy Spirit) descends on each Friday at sunset to transform each Jewish home during the Sabbath.

Your second point:

The elements of the Holy Trinity are unclear, unexplained, and confusing.  Catholic interpretation garbles and manipulates the Tanakh to say there is a Holy Spirit where there isn�t.

I have just shown the contrary using your precious Talmud and the Tanakh.  And I have shown how what was present in the Tanakh is exactly what Jesus Christ, St. Paul, and St. John were talking about in the NT.  Doesn�t leave much wiggle room for you, now, does it, IslamisnotPeace?

Your third point:

3.  You challenged my explanation on the term Shekinah by telling me that my sources of information are not authoritative and yours are:  the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud.  Then you made the following claim (in your own words):  �The "Holy Spirit" in Hebrew is "Ruaḥ ha-Ḳodesh".  See the Jewish Encyclopedia for reference.  The word "Shekinah" is associated with the Holy Spirit but it is not the word for "Holy Spirit".�

Your whole assertion that my sources are poor sources and your sources are better because they are Jewish is a pathetic joke and shows how you derive your logic, IslamisPeace.  For my sources quoted the same Talmud as you did.   Then, when I looked into the Talmud, what did I see?  That the article I accessed quoted properly and did not interpret and assume as you did when you quoted it.  You have been known to deceive, Islamisnotpeace.  You have posted data even from the Tanakh to me on another string and left important parts out, then come back later to say that the part I posted (Gen 9:3) was known to you and that you were just waiting to see if I would find it.  In that string, Gen 9:3 revealed word for word how wrong you truly were.  You are as wrong in this string.  I might also add that your �sources� are not the authorities you claim them to be, as there are two Talmuds, not one, the lesser used one being older, and being from the same faith community as Jesus, and also being not in full agreement with the teachings of the Talmud which you claim is the authority in Judaism.  There are also 4 major sects of Judaism, only one holding to your version of the Talmud as a religious authority.  So much for your disqualifying me for speaking about Jewish belief because I am Catholic.  You, brother, are Muslim, not Jewish, and so you are about as qualified as I to speak about Judaism, if not less so.  You have shown your bias (in your comments), which is to discredit both the Torah and the Holy Bible so as to claim that the only real truth is the �pure and unaltered� Qur'an.  I, on the other hand, simply intend to show that indeed the Jews and the Tanakh are both correct and that Jesus, also a Jew, simply shed some light onto what the Jews already knew so that they and all of humanity would know the full truth about Allah.  So don�t point your crooked finger at me and call me biased and unqualified.  You are the verbalist who keeps getting things wrong due to random interpretation and unsupported surmizings.  You have about as much of an imagination as, say, Muhammad. 

To repeat my last concluding discourse (your pathetic and revealing response will follow), �Now, I'm sorry if this is not the answer you are looking for.  Even kindergarteners know that you get what you get and you don't through a fit.  If you claim that this is not the answer to your question, then... too bad...  get over it.� 

 

IslamisPeace responded:  �It isn't (the answer I was looking for) because you are using Church tradition and teachings (aw, too bad old friend) to garble the passages from the Tanakh.... Christians rely on blind faith and deliberate manipulations!  I am not responsible for your own ignorance and shabby research.� 

Isla. continued:  �I have used authentic Jewish sources to prove my case.  

�(Your assertions are) clearly false in light of my (IslamisnotPeace�s) evidence, my friend.  Will you admit that you were in error?  I am giving you another chance to show that you are capable of objectivity.  If you do, I promise I will show you more respect.  One of my pet peeves is with people who refuse to look at the evidence and instead pretend that nothing has been proven even though the evidence is solid.  That is what irritates me most about you which is why I don't take you seriously when debating with you.  But, I am willing to let bygones be bygones.  However, it all depends on how you respond to the above evidence.

Then you reassert your imagined solid points:

My response:  All Jewish sources?  Yeah, and all posters on Islamicity Forums think you are just the coolest, most intelligent, and fascinating poster on the boards.

Allah�s Blessings, Isla,

Jack Catholic