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Tanakh vs. NT - Confirmation or Contradiction? |
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Jack Catholic 
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Male Joined: 24 March 2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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 Posted: 03 November 2011 at 9:40pm |
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Dear Hasan, I have posted plenty of Multi-source evidence that the Holy Spirit is truly the presence and power of Allah in a post that as of this writing has not cleared being posted on the forum. Your reason for asserting that the Holy Spirit is not Allah is that it is under Allah�s command. But you and I have already gone over this perspective. Remember? I might say that my thumb, tongue, foot, or even eye are mine, yet if I disconnect them from �me,� then they will cease to exist. This means that in order for them to exist, they must be more than separate possessions. They are, in fact, �me,� as long as they are connected. And yet, they are also under my command. My �presence� is, in fact, not a thing, but is �me.� My presence cannot be any other thing accept �me� in a particular place. Yet my presence is also under my command. It is a part of me, while simultaneously under my command. Therefore, since Judaism recognizes the Holy Spirit as the �presence of God,� they must also admit that the Holy Spirit is Allah in a particular time and place while being simultaneously under Allah�s command. The Jews of Jesus� time did not claim that the Holy Spirit was a separate being, since it was not a question for them. But when Jesus�s Apostles pointed out what Jesus said that it truly was, the Jews realized that they had better do something to end the flow of Jewish believers into Christianity. That is why there is some discussion in the Talmud about the Holy Spirit being a created being. That issue is only a discussion recorded in the Talmud, but is not a proclamation. Yet there is a great deal more evidence in both the Tanakh and in the Talmud that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than the Presence and Power of Allah. As far as 1 Sam 10:6 is concerned, the verse simply gives credence to Christian teaching about the Holy Spirit. One of the things the Holy Spirit does is change those whose life it enters. This means the Holy Spirit, the presence of Allah, changes lives. This is what Jesus taught. As far as 1 Sam 11:6 is concerned, there is something called righteous anger, not the evil kind based in selfishness, which give a man the energy and focus to do something out of the ordinary with the goal of correcting a wrong. In this case, God�s Holy Spirit came upon Saul, who responded to the situation in a God inspired way. The issue was that Israel was disconnected. So if one of the tribes was in trouble, the others might not come to its aid. Saul cut up his oxen and sent one piece to each of the tribes to show them what would happen to Israel if they did not stand together. They would be divided to death, just as his oxen had been. Israel responded. This was according to the will of God. The Holy Spirit filled Saul with the desire to correct a wrong according to the will of God. This is not evidence of a separate and inferior being, but of Allah coming over a man and conforming the man to His very will. This does not disprove the Holy Trinity. Sorry. I see you have posted a verse, 1 Sam 19:9, which has caused me to question all that I�ve always known about Allah and what he does and why. Allah sends his Holy Spirit to change people�s lives. I never thought that Allah would send an evil spirit. Yet there it is. I�ve had to search out what the Church says about this. I certainly have no response on my own. You posted 1 Sam 19:9 But an evil spirit from the LORD came on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the lyre, But let us look at other verses regarding Saul and spirits sent by Allah. 1 Sam 16:14 14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evild]'>[d] spirit from the LORD tormented him. I�ll explain this now in light of all three verses. I�m sure that you already know what my response will be. But since you asked me, I�ll go ahead and answer. Allah was with King Saul, and Allah�s presence gave him strength and courage to function as a king should. But eventually Saul chose to disobey Allah, and in so doing, Saul rejected Allah. Allah, in turn, rejected Saul and sent Samuel to anoint another person to be the future king of Israel. That is where 1 Sam 16:14 comes in. It tells us that the Spirit of the Lord (the presence of Allah) left Saul, and an evil spirit came to fill in the empty place where the �Spirit of the Lord� once resided. Allah created this spirit that was evil, as Allah created all things. The Holy Bible tells us that Allah did not create spirits to be evil, but that some spirits chose to reject Allah and so became evil. The spirit that came to Saul after the Holy Spirit left him took on the roll of being a tormentor to Saul. This was Saul�s punishment for rejecting Allah. That the spirit tormented Saul, Saul and others saw it to be evil, as Allah�s Holy Spirit never tormented Saul. Now, I�d like to point out one more thing from 1 Sam 16:14: the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of the Lord, and the evil spirit is called a spirit from the Lord. The significance of the term �Spirit of the Lord� means that the Spirit is the Lord�s very spirit, or �presence,� whereas the spirit �from� means that the spirit simply comes from the Lord in some way, most likely in that Allah created it, though it has since become evil. The following verse, 1 Sam 18:12, verifies that the Spirit of the Lord is actually the presence of the Lord: 1 Sam 18:12 12 Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with David but had departed from Saul. Notice that verse14 of 1 Sam 16 says: �...the Spirit of the Lord had departed...� and 1 Sam 18:12 says, �...the Lord...had departed from Saul.� The wording and language is identical between the two verses, and indicates that the Spirit of the Lord (Allah) is identical to �the Lord (Allah).� You see, the verse you shared actually verifies what Christians and Jews believe. Now let�s look at the verses from the Holy Qur�an which you have posted. If you replace the words, �holy spirit� with the words, �Presence of Allah,� those verses will still mean the same thing. The meaning about God�s participation as those verses relate will not be changed. If Muhammad truly understood the teachings of Jesus, He would have responded to the call of Allah by becoming Christian, not by starting a new religion that would eventually come to persecute Christians and Jews. Saying that the Holy Spirit is Allah is not saying that there are more than one Allah, just that Allah has manifested himself in more than one person. No matter how many persons He has manifested himself as, He is the same Allah that is only one Allah. Allah�s blessings, Jack Catholic |
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honeto
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Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Posted: 02 November 2011 at 11:23am |
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Jack and Reepicheep,
care to address my post above, the real issue? Hasan |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Reepicheep
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Joined: 06 November 2006 Status: Offline Points: 324 |
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Posted: 01 November 2011 at 8:38am |
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Jack catholic wrote: You have used dictionaries to claim...
You make an interesting observation. I agree totally.
For words which appear in English language translations of the Bible, muslim posters within this forum claim the right to "pick and choose" definitions from the dictionary which support their claim, whether or not their interpretation makes sense or is supported by other evidence. At the moment, I am involved in discussions here which hinge on what the words chosen, contradiction, gospel, and judgement mean.
Well, let me try this technique using a verse from the Koran and see what I come up with:
Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). Surah 2:7
The dictionary defines seal as "a marine carnivore of the suborder Pinnipedia". So, using this definition, an alternate translation of Surah 2:7 is:
Allah hath set a marine carnivore on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). Surah 2:7
Is my translation valid? Probably not. But it seems that muslims in this forum do the exact same thing every day in their postings. Kind of hard to hold serious discussions with people like that.
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Jack Catholic
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Male Joined: 24 March 2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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Posted: 31 October 2011 at 11:35am |
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Dear Isla,
Your two posts dated Oct. 30, one at 8:27 and one at 8:38, both show the quality of your posts. They contain absolutely no evidence whatsoever, just like your assertions on this string. Look at the two posting times for you last two posts: 8:27 and 8:38. You just wrote stuff and took no time to use that marvelouse logic and intellect you claim to have. No, both were thoughtless posts. They are irritating as well. I know that you can do better than this Isla (I'm cutting off the -m and the rest of your pen name "is Peace" because your posts are designed to inflame and irritate, not bring peace and understanding, and your rational is that you are "only treating others as they deserve." You have said as much on multiple occasions. If you want me to call you "IslamisPeace" in full, than you had better earn the reputation of bringing peace to those you address, and start behaving with the love that the God you claim to believe in and obey posesses. Else, Isla is all you will get from me.
You said to Reepicheep, "Well, if you haven't been paying attention to this thread, then I can understand your comment."
You see there? You are way out of line. Because indeed he has been paying attention. Don't think he is alone in noticing the quality of your "evidence." You have used dictionaries to claim that words in the Tanakh don't count as evidence when the Talmud indeed says they do. You have posted verses from the Tanakh and claimed they meant things they didn't say, while claiming other verses didn't really mean what they clearly did say. He is right in that you have presented no evidence of contradiction. I am not defending Reepicheep. I am simply letting you know that he is not alone in what he see out of you. Your are loosing this debate badly, Isla.
You (Isla) posted, "However, if you are paying attention, then you will that I have shown a few contradictions already regarding the covenant and the status of the Holy Spirit." Yeah, right
 .You (Isla) said, "Regarding the latter, Christians insist that the Holy Spirit is uncreated. But, the Tanakh and Jewish tradition maintain that the Holy Spirit was actually created on the first day." Yeah,right.
Then you said, "See my rebuttal to Jack above for the evidence." Oh, help me... You are funnier than Bozo! Then you posted (Isla), "Actually, I am quite exhilarated at your silence!" It's the calm before the storm, my friend.
Then you typed, "It shows me that you have been stupefied and vexed by the evidence."
Somebody stop me from this. I can't stop. Oh Isla, you are sooooo funy! Isla: "But, instead of admitting your error and trying to learn the truth, you let your arrogance get the best of you." What ever you say
 .Isla: "You have resorted to clownish behavior instead of actual discussion. I love it!" Yup! I took my ques from you!
Isla: "Your silence on the issue of the Holy Spirit being created is made even more noticeable by your attempt to bring Kish's (who is taking an intellectual beating on another thread already) red herring post back into the mix." Isla, what you consider silence because of being, what did you call it, "vexed" is actuall the sound of study and thinking, something you regularly fail to do. Oh, and then you say that you are the logical one, which tells a lot about what you think is logic, too. Just look at how you fired off two posts in just 10 minutes on an issue where you consider logic and evidence to be so critical. Nobody takes you seriously, Isla. But you do ask questions that one doesn't encounter in normal daily life, and this has value for those of us who care to search out the truth. I've learned a lot about Islam, Judaism, and Christianity by working through these questions.
Isla: "There was no point of responding to that post because it was completely unrelated to the thread (plus it was plagiarized as per Kish's usual tactic)."
And this, Isla, is how you go about avioding posts that conain question or evidence that you are afraid to deal with. Kish's post dealt with exactly what your post is supposed to be about. His evidence cut through to the heart of the matter, which is that while you are trying to prove that the Holy Bible (Tanakh plus NT) is in contradition and therefore a badly altered text, those personal friends of Muhammad who knew of the Holy Bible dissagree with you. That alone should end this discussion. You have brushed the issue aside because you know the posistion it puts you in and you are hoping that we will follow you away from this evidence. No such luck, big boy. I challange you to address Kish and his evidence with a real and researched response. No more of this pamsy behavior of yours. Cowboy up, big guy!
Dr. Isla the phsycologist speaks: "But the fact that he tried shows that this thread is causing much discomfort for the Christians on this forum. None of you can seem to respond to the evidence. I think Kish actually feels that the issue of the trinity is at least plausible since he considers it to be a foreign concept which was not taught by Jesus or the disciples. But of course, the rest of the topic (the Tanakh contradicting the NT) is uncomfortable for him as a Christian." Yeah, right
. More Isla hot air.Allah's blessings, Isla,
Jack Catholic
Edited by Jack Catholic - 31 October 2011 at 11:41am |
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honeto
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Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Posted: 31 October 2011 at 11:17am |
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Jack,
thanks for your reply. Holy spirit, as mentioned in the Bible and Quran is not God. Has it been God, it would not be under God's commands, nor it would be evil at times as the Bible says which simply shows the tranformation of understanding the difference between angels and Satan, both beings spirits.
Anyone or anything that is under God's command or to His service is not God.
What is thought to be God the Holy Ghost/Spirit is in fact angels or spirits that God has created for different tasks. And we will see that throughout the Bible this Spirit beings has been sent down for different tasks.
For example:
1 Samuel 10:6
The Spirit of the LORD will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. Now in the following verse we see a very different role of "Spirit" it also proves that it is certainly not God the Holy Ghost, yet it clearly says, "Spirit from God" rather another spirit being, Satan, a Jinn:
1 Samuel 11:6
When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he burned with anger. We follow it up to the next one:
1 Samuel 19:9
But an evil spirit from the LORD came on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the lyre, Jack you be the judge, with fairness and explain.
Now let us see how Quran clears up the confussion:
5:110 Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity.
For a Muslim there is no problem understanding this, when God says "He will strenthened....with holy spirit" it means what it means that God has power over holy spirit, and God will give that, because God can, thus holy spirit is under God's command and anyone under God's command is not God, simple as that.
16:102 Say, the holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
34:40 One Day He will gather them all together, and say to the angels, "Was it you that these men used to worship?"
41 They will say, "Glory to Thee! our (tie) is with Thee - as Protector - not with them. Nay, but they worshipped Jinn: most of them believed in them."
So, Jack it is our choice, but to worship that is subject to Allah or under His command that is not God, whether in OT, NT or Final Testament times. God is always One, none else equals Him, thus none else is worthy of worship, but Only Him.
Hasan
Edited by honeto - 31 October 2011 at 11:36am |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Reepicheep
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Joined: 06 November 2006 Status: Offline Points: 324 |
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Posted: 31 October 2011 at 8:28am |
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islamispeace wrote: I have already pointed out to you that to say that since the Tanakh never explicitly denies that God is a trinity then it would not be a contradiction to say that He is, is logically absurd.
Why do you think this is a both a contradiction and logically absurd? It is obviously neither.
Prove to me using symbolic logic that there is a falsehood here. Show me, using the laws of logic, where the contradiction is.
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islamispeace
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Posted: 30 October 2011 at 8:37pm |
Actually, I am quite exhilarated at your silence! It shows me that you have been stupefied and vexed by the evidence. But, instead of admitting your error and trying to learn the truth, you let your arrogance get the best of you. It seems that I have brought out the real Jack, as can be seen by your recent posts. You have resorted to clownish behavior instead of actual discussion. I love it! Your silence on the issue of the Holy Spirit being created is made even more noticeable by your attempt to bring Kish's (who is taking an intellectual beating on another thread already) red herring post back into the mix. There was no point of responding to that post because it was completely unrelated to the thread (plus it was plagiarized as per Kish's usual tactic). But the fact that he tried shows that this thread is causing much discomfort for the Christians on this forum. None of you can seem to respond to the evidence. I think Kish actually feels that the issue of the trinity is at least plausible since he considers it to be a foreign concept which was not taught by Jesus or the disciples. But of course, the rest of the topic (the Tanakh contradicting the NT) is uncomfortable for him as a Christian. Anyway, the Holy Spirit was created according to the Tanakh and Jewish tradition. Therefore, this constitutes a contradiction between the Tanakh and the NT. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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islamispeace
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Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Posted: 30 October 2011 at 8:28pm |
Well, if you haven't been paying attention to this thread, then I can understand your comment. However, if you are paying attention, then you will that I have shown a few contradictions already regarding the covenant and the status of the Holy Spirit. Regarding the latter, Christians insist that the Holy Spirit is uncreated. But, the Tanakh and Jewish tradition maintain that the Holy Spirit was actually created on the first day. See my rebuttal to Jack above for the evidence. Regarding the trinity, I have already pointed out to you that to say that since the Tanakh never explicitly denies that God is a trinity then it would not be a contradiction to say that He is, is logically absurd. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Jack Catholic wrote:
Don't get too irritated...