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Israfil 
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Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
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 Posted: 08 September 2005 at 4:50pm |
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As'Salaamu Alaikum Sister Nausheen!
Sister Nausheen with all due respect to your great wisdom I'd have to disagree. I believe it is with culture. as I can recall an incident with an ex-coworker of mine (who by the way is Gay) while working in the hospital delivering food to patients went into the room of a Muslim man and was shunned away because he was male. Mind you my ex-cowrker friend is homosexual and wondered why he was shunned from delivering food to the husbands wife. No surprise he latter put up a sign and said no males! Similar incident with me when I spoke to another Muslimah with small talk and a greeting. Because of course i'm American I stuck my hand out and said: "Nice to meet you!" not knowing if she was married. She shyed away and just said "As'Salaamu Alaikum" Of course I knew then she had to be married of course but my intention was not to speak to her in a personal matter but I used American custom to greet her. I understand that in Islam there is a conscious divide between men and women and that this divide is prescribe to maintain the modesty between both parties. but as i understand how this is interpreted and acted out appears to be culturally motivated, not Quranic. As I understand of Arab men there is a sense of macho pride and the protection of their women. As I understand of some Arabic women there is a sense of shyness, small talk (or no talk) and quiet submission to their husbands. I understand how one acts depends on how one is raised but the important thing to note here is that our Ummah is hyper- genderized. Women over here and men over there. Even in some societies its men in the front, women and children in the back., even while driving in the car! From my experience even with the amount of time of being a revert I can say that Muslim women really do not know much about men except through visual observation and/personal contact with family members (or strangers)/. The same can be said for men. For those who are religious its impossible to know the opposite sex truly. Even if you say marriage can give you an impression I say it gives a small impression. The man you marry is not the same as the man I am., or the same as Ahmed or Ishaq or Israfil or zayd. Your man (or women) accounts as an individual and the knowledge you obtain from that individual is not the general impression of the sex. To get a general impression of the sex you have to encounter (perhaps personally on a cordial basis of course) various individuals. You can do this visually without greeting perople but the full impression has to include both the 'audio and vocal' as my speech professor used to say. |
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Hayfa
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Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
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Posted: 09 September 2005 at 10:18am |
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I think it is about a resonable balance. The world is complex. And there needs to limitiations but the reality is that genders will mix especially at work. The goal of hijab is to have modesty so women can be hassle free. If men and women cannot even have a dialogue then how can women be seen as intelligent people? Otherwise we areseen as 'women' and something 'different'. I remember having long discussions about this with a dear friend. Asking him about the gender 'seperation' that I could not relate to-I have no problem with not sleeping with the men I know. And he said that many people just go the wrong way with it, they cannot control themselves. And the rules are there to guide the majority of people. It does make sense. Ireally do not want anyone touching my hands. Skaing hands is cultural yes. But there is something awkward about it. Plus there is a boundary issue. I want no strange man to touch me. Never did, even before I became a Moslem. That may be just a personal thing. Having traveled to a predominantly Moslem culture it was nice to have my boundaries respected there. No touching by people I do not know. Friendly and cordial yet.. but no invasion of space. The wife in the hospital. Frankly it can be awkward if you are not used to having other men around you. Particularly in a hosptial one is vulnerable not just physically but emotionally. Women in many facets of their lives deal with some men who use subtle ways of intimidations upon them. Of course not all men, but of course there are a few bad eggs in every basket.
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Israfil
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Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
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Posted: 11 September 2005 at 3:27pm |
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Hafya there is a difference in approach of course, but the point here is that Muslim women truly do not know "men" and the same with us men. When it comes to knowledge the only knowledge is through marriage, but that knowledge does not provide a general impression of men it only provides the individual impression. As Sister Nausheen mentions her inital assertion of men was negative due to "experience" now for the Muslim man the goal is to extinguish this notion. Of course now the sister thinks differently but the point is the world sees a Muslim man as negative due to other cultures. All men are different even those bad eggs. Every man has their own way of expressing themselves. I believe the goal here is to learn from each other. Modesty in Islam is important. There is nothing here arguing against that, but its the knowledge o both men and women is what I'm addressing here.
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Brother123
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Joined: 22 April 2005 Status: Offline Points: 84 |
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Posted: 22 September 2005 at 5:40am |
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Sister Hafya. why would women need to speak to men to be seen as being intelligent? Inteligance does not come from a women speaking to a man. Thats called inferiority complex. An intelligent women is women who knows that intelignece is not related to speaking to men. This is what the kaffirs in the west have brain washed the women and even teh men. That a intellgent and strong women is one who is rough and tough like a man and wont stand for segragation. Two things come from this. They are saying your a women and not like a man who is strong and tough so you are inferior. and they wanty women there for their lusts so they drive them to think mixing in worksplace is how they will achieve streanth and inteligence. Its quite intersting what you said though. Just goes to show how much work is needed to undo their brain washing of the their population masses. And we can do this quite eaisly. And save the kaffirs form the brain washing of their polititions and lifesyle gurus.
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Hayfa
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Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
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Posted: 23 September 2005 at 10:39am |
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Sister Hafya. why would women need to speak to men to be seen as being intelligent? They don't but there are situations that arise where it may happen. I don't need to speak to men.. but for example we are talking on this web site.. No one has to be 'like men' that is no the point. The point is that often we cross in life. For example when I was the only child at home and outside chores needed to done i did them. For whatever reason my father could not. I am not trying to 'be like' men but doing a basic function or skill. I suppose it was a 'man's job to mow the lawn or shovel the snow but if I had not done so it would not have happened. Just like men can learn basic cooking and cleaning skills. These are just skills. That does not make them 'women' but practical and useful in times of need. I have no issues with general roles. No problem But it does disturb me if the angle of resoning is "I am not capable solely because I am a woman". I remember a long time ago taking a class on basic auto mechanics 101 for women (taught by a woman). This is not to say I need to be a mechanic but: a. What if I get stuck somewhere and cannot get help, I can help myself. Let's say I was on the road with my kids (I don't have kids) and car dies and my phone dies, I'll need to completely rely upon a strange man who comes along. b. I too can learn simple skills. How to check gas, oil etc. They are not about being a 'man' but learning skills. I think to promote helplessness is not good in anyone. Yes we can and do need help but not to the point where it is detriment to my health and safety. Both men and women ARE strong. To be able to care for myself makes me more equipped to help our spouses, help other people and raise healthy children.
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Lameese
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Female Joined: 08 April 2002 Status: Offline Points: 304 |
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Posted: 23 September 2005 at 5:29pm |
Inferioirity complex to the man who has a problem with it. Inferiority complex that is part of HIS problem. And the Prophets wives taught Islam to men and women. You are a little hypocritical.
Lameese |
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Brother123
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Joined: 22 April 2005 Status: Offline Points: 84 |
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Posted: 27 September 2005 at 12:29pm |
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And the Prophets wives obeyed tehir husband and were not femanist unlike you.
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Lameese
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Posted: 27 September 2005 at 3:09pm |
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The Prophets wives fought beside him too.....did you forget that? That they owned a buisness? Forget that too? The also taught the people (men and women) about Islam.........again did you forget? He also mended his own clothes rather then ask his wives to do it, why? Because he said he was able to do this too. Forget that too? Maybe you should read the Qur'an sometime!
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Brother123 wrote: