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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Larry: "Were there more than one version of Quran" Post Reply Post New Topic
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Topic: Larry: "Were there more than one version of Quran"
    Posted: 24 August 2011 at 3:43pm
OK, Larry.  Here we go.  Now we are on a new thread and can discuss your topic.  You asked:

Originally posted by Larry

"Were there more than one version of the Qur'an?"


The answer is yes.  However, by "versions" it is meant that the Quran was originally revealed in seven dialects (ahruf).  Sahih Bukhari states:

"Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to that of mine. Allah's Apostle had taught it to me (in a different way). So, I was about to quarrel with him (during the prayer) but I waited till he finished, then I tied his garment round his neck and seized him by it and brought him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I have heard him reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to the way you taught it to me." The Prophet ordered me to release him and asked Hisham to recite it. When he recited it, Allah s Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way." He then asked me to recite it. When I recited it, he said, "It was revealed in this way. The Qur'an has been revealed in seven different ways, so recite it in the way that is easier for you." (3:41:601)

This was done to facilitate comprehension and memorization of the Quran by the early Muslims, who spoke various Arabic dialects.  Therefore, the Quran was originally revealed in seven versions/dialects.    


Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2011 at 11:36am
Come, come Larry.  Grow a spine and let us start the discussion.  You wanted to discuss this topic, so here it is.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2011 at 1:28am
islamispeace,

   I found two references to the history and purity of Qur'anic texts.

http://harvardhouse.com/qur'an_purity.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Qur'an

Comments?

Larry

Edited by Larry - 16 September 2011 at 1:31am
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2011 at 11:51am

If that is the case, why don’t any Islamic scholars accept all 7-10 versions? And, why do the different Qur'ans also have a different understanding of the Basmalah, some accepting it as part of the Qur'an while others not, if it’s just dialect, which in essence means, the Qur'an that is recited around the world today is different. They are different in their basic letters, diacritical dots and vowels, and this changes the meaning of words, sentences and therefore understanding. Like any ‘version/dialect’ if the dots and vowels are placed in different places they WILL make different words, having a different meaning.

That is why no one accepts all of these versions as authentic, some are accepted and others are rejected, why is that? In fact, they are judged in the same way that the Hadith are judged for their authenticity. The gradings are: sahih (authentic), shadh (irregular), da'eef (weak) and baatil (false).[3] In this way the Qur'an is the same as the Hadith.

Example:

That God and his apostle dissolve obligations with the pagans (9:3)

That God dissolves obligations with the pagans and the apostle.

This mistake occurred through wrongly reading rasulihi in place of rasuluhu, which could not be distinguished from the written text, because there were no signs or accents indicating the correct pronunciation. Unless someone had memorized the correct version he could out of ignorance easily commit such a mistake. (Von Denffer, `Ulum Al-Qur'an - An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'an, pp. 57-58)

So, while there are some dialectal differences between these versions of the Qur'an the majority of the differences are the result of the ambiguity of the early Arabic text. It is this ambiguity of the text that has led to so many different versions.

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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2011 at 2:33pm
Ummmm,  by chance,  when Allah's Prophet revealed something from Allah, are you saying that he revealed it in 7 different dialects?
 
Just wondering...
 
Jack Catholic
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2011 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Larry

islamispeace,

   I found two references to the history and purity of Qur'anic texts.

http://harvardhouse.com/qur'an_purity.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Qur'an

Comments?

Larry


Larry, the first link does not work.  The second link is a hodge-podge of material written by anonymous people, which is why I don't use Wikipedia (and my college professors warned their students against using for research purposes).  In any case, which part(s) of the article are you concerned about? 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2011 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Kish

If that is the case, why don’t any Islamic scholars accept all 7-10 versions? And, why do the different Qur'ans also have a different understanding of the Basmalah, some accepting it as part of the Qur'an while others not, if it’s just dialect, which in essence means, the Qur'an that is recited around the world today is different. They are different in their basic letters, diacritical dots and vowels, and this changes the meaning of words, sentences and therefore understanding. Like any ‘version/dialect’ if the dots and vowels are placed in different places they WILL make different words, having a different meaning.

That is why no one accepts all of these versions as authentic, some are accepted and others are rejected, why is that? In fact, they are judged in the same way that the Hadith are judged for their authenticity. The gradings are: sahih (authentic), shadh (irregular), da'eef (weak) and baatil (false).[3] In this way the Qur'an is the same as the Hadith.

Example:

That God and his apostle dissolve obligations with the pagans (9:3)

That God dissolves obligations with the pagans and the apostle.

This mistake occurred through wrongly reading rasulihi in place of rasuluhu, which could not be distinguished from the written text, because there were no signs or accents indicating the correct pronunciation. Unless someone had memorized the correct version he could out of ignorance easily commit such a mistake. (Von Denffer, `Ulum Al-Qur'an - An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'an, pp. 57-58)

So, while there are some dialectal differences between these versions of the Qur'an the majority of the differences are the result of the ambiguity of the early Arabic text. It is this ambiguity of the text that has led to so many different versions.


Kish, if you are going to regurgitate plagiarized material from Answering-Islam (another trait you share with a fellow Jehovah's Witness on this forum), then I am afraid no one will take you as a serious researcher.  Case in point:

You copied Answering-Islam concerning the "example" of Surah 9, verse 3, and provided a phony reference to make it appear as if you actually read Von Denffer's work.  Unfortunately for you, this work is available on the internet, and more specifically, on Islamic websites!  Here is the complete passage, in context, as Von Denffer wrote:

"Tashkil is the name for the signs indicating the vowels in Arabic scripts. They were apparently unknown in pre-lslamic times. These signs help to determine the correct pronunciation of the word and to avoid mistakes.

Example:

Byt Baitun

When more and more Muslims of non-Arab origin and also many ignorant Arabs' [Yaqut reports in his book irshad that al-Hajjaj b. Yusuf himself once read ahabba in 9: 24 wrongly as ahabbu, see GdQ. 111, 124, note 6.] studied the Qur'an, faulty pronunciation and wrong readings began to increase. It is related that at the time of Du'all (d. 69H/638) someone in Basra read the following aya [9:3] from the Qur'an in a faulty way, which changed the meaning completely: :

That God and His apostle dissolve obligations with the pagans' (9: 3).

'That God dissolves obligations with the pagans and the apostle.'

The mistake occurred through wrongly reading rasulihi in place of rasuluhu, which could not be distinguished from the written text, because there were no signs or accents indicating the correct pronunciation. Unless someone had memorised the correct version he could out of ignorance easily commit such a mistake. [See also fihrist, 1, pp. 87-8.] The signs or accents to prevent such problems were introduced not long before the i'jam and then got the shape they have to this day: [Hughes,T.P.: A Dictionary of Islam London,1895 p.687.]" (Chapter 3, The Quran in Manuscript and Print)

So as you can see, one specific person read the verse the wrong way due to his ignorance of the Arabic language.  The Arabs knew the correct reading and hence did not need vowel marks.  Those were introduced later to aid non-Arab speaking Muslims and certain ignorant Arabs (remember that in those days, many people could not read or write).  Notice also that Von Denffer even points out that those who memorized the Quran would not have made that mistake!  I have mentioned this fact before to argue that since the Quran was memorized by many people, the chances of mistakes entering the text (whether deliberately or by mistake) and being retained was impossible. 

For people like you to take this example out of context and use it to argue that the Quran is not the same as it was when it was revealed is a non-sequitur fallacy based on poor research.   



Edited by islamispeace - 18 September 2011 at 11:40am
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2011 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Ummmm,  by chance,  when Allah's Prophet revealed something from Allah, are you saying that he revealed it in 7 different dialects?
 
Just wondering...
 
Jack Catholic


When the Quran was revealed bit by bit to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), it was revealed to him in seven dialects.  His followers could then choose to recite the Quran in the dialect they were most comfortable with.  This was done to facilitate the memorization and understanding of the Quran by the early Muslims, the vast majority of whom were Arabs.   
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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