The Holy Gospel did not evolve!

Ahmadi Muslim,

   You make a distinction between "Islam's God" and refer to Judaism and Christianity as "man-made" religions. This is the point that I have made repeatedly, that, for all the talk about "People of the Book," in reality the "God" of Islam is NOT the same God as that of the "People of the Book" Jews and Christians (and Sabeans, who were pagans), thanks for clearing that point up.

   You call Islam "the original religion of Abraham." But the Jews and Christians recognized Abraham as one of the first Jewish Patriarchs millenia, in the case of Jews and centuries, in the case of Christians, before Islam ever existed. Also, "Abraham" or "Ibrahim" are not Arabic names, the true Arabic form of Abraham is "Abu Raheem."

   For Islam to conveniently say that it was the "original" religion of God is simply a statement with no basis in fact. This historical "revisionism" is a common characteristic of Islam and Muslims. Show me ANY historical proof, by ANY ancient writer or historian, outside of Islam and the Qur'an, that shows that Islam or Muhammad existed prior to the 7th century C.E.

   I can show historical written ancient works, such as those of Flavius Josephus and many Roman writers and historians, that show that Judaism has been a faith for more than three thousand years and that Christianity has been a faith for more than two thousand years.

   You continually use the Qur'an to make your points, but the Qur'an is not a "source" that is accepted by historians in relation to which religions were the earliest and which came later. Just as it would be if I used the Bible as the source material to prove that Christianity is the only "true" religion. But there are many widely-accepted ancient sources outside of the Bible that back up the statements and beliefs of both the Jews and Christians.

   And I repeat that the "prophet" Muhammad himself never made ANY "prophecies" that were later fulfilled after the writing of the Qur'an. This is the standard for true prophets of God in the Old Testament or Torah. And this is a primary reason why Jews and Christians reject Islam as the "true" religion of God.

Larry



Edited by Larry - 12 September 2012 at 2:39am

Larry,
thanks for explaining Santa Claus.
again you are simply trying to divert the attention from the topic at hand.
We have seen through various verses posted from the Bible and your own admittance to the fact that Bible has been written by many people over time. And its has progressed to its present statue through the process called transformation. May be it is this transformation that is to be blamed for objectionable material we see in the Bible. Simply, in its present state it does not qualify as pure revelation from God anymore.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 10 September 2012 at 3:15pm

Peace Larry,

I wish you would not change my words.

What I actually said was that I view homosexuality no different than I view adultery. 

The Bible is clear on its view of both and that the one is the improper nature that God allows man to be given over to.... "unnatural attractions"... "given with lust male for male and even female for female"  It is all in the Bible.  You say you belong to God.  Do you believe then in His Word?  Can you belong to God if you reject His Word?

My uncle knows my views, and I do not say that he is a product of satan.  I say that he has attractions that come from man's weakness to give in to temptations that are unnatural... wherever they come from really does not matter, they are temptations to do what is not in God's design.  I do not believe people are "born that way".  I believe the mind at some point in development becomes confused.  In my uncle's case, he had an uncle who behaved in a sexual way with him, and when he told his mother his mother disbelieved him.  This created problems in relationship with both genders. There are things that happen in life that can cause a person to seek love wherever they think they can find it.  I have always displayed love and caring to my uncle because I knew that he needed it, but still I did not compromise on truth in my dealing with him.  He was able to accept this.  He did not attempt to live in denial.  Mostly it was just an issue that we skirted, except when he felt the need to bring it up as an antagonism, in which case he was sure to get my feelings on the matter.

You don't have to care what I support.  I only hope that I am in the majority... and my post was simply about the fact that, if the country of the United States is more religious than non-religious... meaning if they believe in God and His Word... then I ought to be in the majority, and a majority determines the society.

"How can there be an "abberation" in "God's design?"
Ok, since you missed it... satan has been messing with God's design ever since God created man... by using temptation and deceit.

I did not say that I did not have any sin.  I said "I have no plank in my eye".  I see my own sin clearly.  It is the truth that sets you free.  I do not deny my sins.  A practicing homosexual is denying his sin, just as a practicing adulterer is denying his sin.

Obama supports abortion by not only making it legal, but by forcing businesses to support and pay for it as well, even when it is against their conscience.  No woman is forced to do anything.  Abortions went on long before they ever became legal, but they skyrocketed since the time they were made legal.  You are right it was between a woman and her God and her conscience, now it has been normalized and the conscience is dulled.  And as I said, I don't think you will find many women later in life saying I'm so glad I had that abortion at the time in my life when my conscience was dulled.
As far as rape - read some stories about women who have carried these children to term.  Accepting God's will is part of the journey through life.  The trouble is, no one accepts any will other than their own anymore, even when there was a greater plan and blessing in God's plan that may never be realized.
Many women have made the choice to carry children to term even though it could result in her death.  This is part of accepting God's will and plan.  This is belonging to God and not self-will.

So you don't believe in paganism?  How then do you believe in God who spoke always against it?

Did God make a mistake when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha?

People reject God's message because it is inconvenient and interferes with their own self-will.

Can you not see the curses that are coming down on the United States?  ... or 'can you not even discern the signs of the times'?

I'm not explaining and we have no choice but to tolerate.  This does not mean I can not speak.  I bear no one ill will.  I do have a say in the society in which I would like to live, whether or not it comes about.  If the United States is a religious country then they should make a vote that reflects a support of God's laws.  That's all I say.
_____________________________________

18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
_________________________________________

How much do you really love your family members if you refuse to warn them?
'faithful are the wounds of a friend and deceitful the kisses of an enemy'

Does God not show His love for us, according to the scriptures, by His discipline, even if it seems harsh to us at the time?  Does He not have our greater good in mind?






Edited by Caringheart - 15 September 2012 at 6:16pm

Friendship wrote: Assalamu alaika Larry.I want you and all those described and called as the People of the Book to learn Arabic so that we can form a formidable body to fight injustice, discrimination, tyranny and all the evils saturating the earth. Muhammad was never and today will never be a tribal, regional leader.    I have seen no evidence, whatsoever, that Muhammad ever left the Arabian peninsula, which would make him a "regional" and "tribal" (Quryash) leader. As far as reading the Qur'an in pure Arabic is concerned, it is not purely Arabic in character, there are foreign, non-Arabic words in the Qur'an. For example:    Harut and Marut are Persian names for angels.    Syriac words are; Taboot, Taghouth, Zakat and Malakout.    Hebrew words are; Sakinah, Heber, Maoon, Taurat, Jehannim and Tufan (deluge).    Greek words; Injil (Gospel) was borrowed, the Arabic equivalent of Bisharah. Iblis is not Arabic, it is a corruption of the Greek word Diabolos.    Christian Aramaic; Qiyama (resurrection).    Christian Ethiopic; Malak is Ethiopic word for angel.    He indeed took that mantle of teaching peace prosperity to the world as was done by the prophets and messengers before him. In the same manner that Allah sent only messengers and prophets to the Children of Israel from themselves to defeat their enemies, this role has been overtaken by Muhammad and his followers.    You say that the "role" of the Children of Israel has been "overtaken" by "Muhammad and his followers," at least it seems that way by Muslim beliefs, but that is certainly not the belief the original "Children of Israel", the Jews. Let us go by the Torah-� false prophet can be known for whatever he says will never materialize- it is falsehood. Let us do litmus test for a second! I am a scientist and I believe in experiments as a way to progress. What does it take to apply the written and oral law? Who is afraid of it. Please read this book: sbpra/allamadrsanisalihmustapha.Do not trust the knowledge of his present followers. In 1927 Professor Phillip Khyuri Hitti a Christian Meronite Arab described the Arabs as doing lip service to the teachings of Muhammad. This is the teaching to bring world� stability and progress.� An Egyptian Arab judge claimed that 98% of the Muslims are illiterate. The remaining 2% are no better than the 98%. Do you know the reason? This is because they have monopolized the Qur'an saying that no one should touch it besides them. Its this not an indirect way of denying that Muhammad is sent as warner and a bringer of glad tidings to the world?    I have no idea of what "Professor Philip Khyuri Hitti, a Christian Meronite Arab" says or why what he says matters to anyone who is Jewish or Christian, I have never heard of him. And your statement that the Torah does not say that a "false prophet," can be known by his prophecies never materializing, is simply untrue, that is exactly what the Old Teastament says is the proof of a "true prophet of God." Any "prophet" making false prophecies would be stoned to death. What is the genesis of Arab spring?    The uprising in Tunisia, I believe, and the resulting collapse of so many autocratic and dictatorial regimes in the area.    Jerusalem was named 668 times in the qur'an- 667 in the Bible compromising of the Torah and the Injeel revealed to Jesus son of Maryam and once in Qur'an 30, where it is named indirectly.    I saw nothing in Qur'an 30 that even comes close to naming Jerusalem, even "indirectly,"why would Muhammad not know the name of Jerusalem?    Also, in Qur'an 30:27 it says in part, "...To Him (Allah) belongs the loftiest similitude (we can think of) in the heavens and the earth, for He is Exalted in Might, full of wisdom." Who is "we" of (we can think of?")    That is not true, the name Jerusalem is never mentioned even ONCE in the Qur'an, even "indirectly" (whatever that means).� At that time Muhammad rejoiced. Please note that if Muhammad were to mention every positive evidence, how long is he going to live? 1000 years like Noah?    If Muhammad was going to mention Jerusalem then he would have in the Qur'an. The writers of the Bible didn't "live for 1,000 years" and yet they still had time to mention Jerusalem 667 times. How much time does it take a person to name the third most "holy" city in Islam even ONCE? And I saw nothing in Qur'an 30 that even comes close to naming Jerusalem.    Muhammad has more right to Jerusalem than his cousins because� he made a recess in his house and named it Jerusalem wall.    So, you think that by Muhammad "making a recess in his house in Arabia that he called "Jerusalem wall" means Muslims have the primary claim to Jerusalem the city? I didn't realize that it was that easy to take over someone else's city, in another country, no less.    That was the direction he faced to pray until the G-d of Abraham changed the direction for him.    Muhammad originally said said he had a "revelation" from God that Mecca was the qibla, but soon after said that said it was really Jerusalem, and then a short time later after another "revelation" changed the qibla back to the original Mecca, particularly after the Jews in Medina refused to believe that Muhammad was a true prophet of God. It was not long after that that 800 Jewish men and boys of the Qurayza tribe were beheaded by Muslims. The companions of the holy Apostle who never harbored any malice to the People of the Book wanted to take Muhammad to Jerusalem for burial close to his grandfather - Abra called Abraham later.    So, now you are claiming that Muhammad's grandfather is Abraham? That would mean that Muhammad's "grandfather" lived for over 4,000 years. Why didn't the "companions" bury Muhammad in Jerusalem if that was where his "grandfather" Abraham (originally "Abram" in the Old Testament) was buried? or are you saying that Muhammad claimed that Abraham was his direct ancestor? if that was true then the earlier "descendents" of Abraham, the Jews, have more of a claim.        Tell me Larry, where Jesus faced when he was praying in Matthew 36-43?    Jesus was praying in the garden of Gethsemane in Matthew Chapter 26: 36-43. It doesn't say which direction He was facing, but since the Garden of Gethsemane overlooks Jerusalem, I would suppose He was facing the Temple Mount, as all observant Jews did, and Jesus was certainly a Jew. The "last supper" (seder) was in commemoration of the Jewish Passover. Also know that when Umar the second caliph went to Jerusalem, he refused to pray in the prayer place of the Bishop for fear that the Muslims will claim right over Jerusalem. There was mutual respect and this can be achieved by the time you learn Arabic and read the explanation of the way of life Muhammad lead and not relying on reading the bare Qur'an that is yet to bring peace and stability to the world.    Your statement only goes to show that Muslims have made a habit of claiming "holy places" of the "holy places" of other faiths, as is shown by Umar's "fear" that Muslims would "claim" Jerusalem, which is exactly what they did, when they took over the city. I don't see any sign that the Muslims of today give "mutual respect" to Jews to enter their own sacred Temple Mount. The Temple Mount in Jerusalem is the first and ONLY "holiest" place to the Jews. Why do Muslims today say that the Jews have NO claim, whatsoever, to any part of the Temple Mount?    Your arguments concerning Jerusalem are simply unsustainable. � Friendship .

Larry

Edited by Larry - 09 September 2012 at 11:29pm