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Egwpisteuw
 
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Quote Egwpisteuw Replybullet Topic: Ibn-Hazm (Khazem) and Corruption
    Posted: 05 November 2010 at 4:48pm
The cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics to Christians is the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption.  However, most Muslims:

1. Do not know the history of this doctrine.

2. Have never thought through the theological implications of this doctrine.

3. Have never thought through the historical implications of this doctrine.

In this thread, I would like to discuss these issues.

History of the Doctrine:

Ibn Hazm (aka Ibn Khazem) was the first Muslim to posit the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption in the 11th century AD.  Thus for the first four centuries of Islamic history this doctrine did not exist. This is in keeping with a literal grammatical reading of the Quran which claims to be " a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture" Surah 10:37

However, Ibn Hazm noticed that the Quran does not live up to the standard which it proclaims:
 
"Ibn-Khazem saw the contradictions between the Qur'an and the Gospels. One obvious example being the Qur'anic text `They slew him not and they crucified him not' Surah 4:156. `Since the Qur'an must be true,' Ibn- Khazem argued, `it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians.' His argument was not based on historical facts, but purely on his own reasoning and on his wish to safeguard the truth of the Qur'an. I. DI MATTEO, (`Il "takhrif" od alterazione della Bibbia secondo i musulmani', Bessarione 38 (1922) 64-111; 223-260; `Le preteze contradizzioni della S. Scrittura secondo Ibn-Hazm', Bessarione 39 (1923) 77-127, E. FRITSCH, op. cit., p. 66.)"

"Nothing could stop him from pursuing this accusation, it seemed the easiest way to attack the opponents. `If we prove the falsehood of their books, they lose the arguments they take from them.' (IBN KHAZEM, Kitab al-fasl fi'l-milah wa'l ahwa'l nikhal, II,6; E. FRITSCH, op cit., p.55) and this led to him eventually making the cynical statement `The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which Allah has left intact as argument against them.' ( IBN KHAZEM, ibid.; E. FRITSCH, op. cit, p. 64)"
 
"Later writers took up the same reasoning, enlarged it and embellished it. The falsification of the Bible was thus asserted by Salikh Ibn-al-Khusain (died 1200AD), Ahmad at-Qarafi (died 1285AD), Sa'id Ibn-Khasan (died 1320AD), Muhammad Ibn-Abi-Talib (died 1327AD), Ibn-Taimija (died 1328AD) and many others. From then on it has become a fixed ingredient of Muslim apologetics."


Theological Implications of the Doctrine:

If God was either unable or unwilling to keep His Word from corruption, then He is not God. If He was not able to keep His Word from corruption then He is not Omnipotent and thus not God. If He was unwilling to keep His Word from Corruption then His attributes of Veracity and Immutability are compromised and He is not God:
 
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.Isaiah 40:8

Historical Implications of the Doctrine:

The historical implications of this doctrine are huge. The Bible is by far the most well attested book of antiquity. The manuscript evidence is much stronger than any other ancient writing. Thus to throw out the Bible as corrupted is to throw out the writings of: Homer, Virgil, Tacitus, Josephus, Julius Caesar, Ovid, Virgil, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristotle, Suetonius, etc., basically all of Ancient History.

Thus, Ibn Hazm's doctrine of Biblical Corruption makes no sense. It should be rejected by the honest Muslim. It is an impediment to the necessary confrontation of the critical question:

What is the real reason why the Quran and the Bible disagree on most major doctrines?


Edited by Egwpisteuw - 05 November 2010 at 4:50pm
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2010 at 1:37am
Greetings and welcome.

Interesting post. I would love to do a write up but will do when I have more time.


Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2010 at 3:05am

  To Egwpisteuw

 I think you donot know that your own Bible contradicts itself.

 For example:

 It is written in Mark 4:39-40 that Jesus firstly stopped the storm then he rebuked the disciples while Matthew 8:26 says that firstly he rebuked the disciples then he stopped the storm.

 It is called clear cut chronological contradiction.Such type of contradiction you cannot find in the Holy Quran.

 May be chronological contradiction insignificant in the eyes of some christians  but following verses prove it does:

 Psalm 33:4 "For the word of the LORD is right and true; he is faithful in all he does."

 
Psalm 119:160 "All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal."

 If the Bible is the word of God, every word should be true. But, with this chronological contradiction, only 1 chronological order can be right while other has to be false, which shows these chronological contradictions contradict these 2 verses above, which proves these contradictions do affect Christian doctrine & the Bible is not God's word.

 
 
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Quote Egwpisteuw Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2010 at 7:12am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

 I think you donot know that your own Bible contradicts itself.
Mansoor, Let me be honest here. Although I am new to this forum, I am not new to debating Muslims. I know that one of the main stratagems of Muslim Apologetics is to combine the Biblical Mandate to defend the faith:
 
always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you 1 Pet 3:15
 
with the fact that such a defense takes time, research, and effort. Thus, I like to call this "the Bible verse shell game stratagem" i.e.,
 
When confronted with an argument that you cannot answer, throw out Bible verses that seem to conflict and thus put your Christian opponent on the defensive and thereby change the subject. If he answers your first Bible verse question, keep throwing out more and try to weary him.
 
I fully believe and would stake my life on the fact that every supposed Bible difficulty can indeed be answered as Jesus himself assures us:
 
"the Scripture cannot be broken" John 10:35
 
However, my goal in this thread is to drill down on the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption itself. I find this doctrine totally untenable and illogical, and yet it has become the very cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics. Why?
 
I believe the answer to this question is that Ibn Hazm saved Islam. Islam could never exist in the modern world where I can go on-line and pull up an electronic copy of the Quran in my native language and compare it with an electronic copy of the Bible in my native language and see the contradictions in almost every major doctrine, but that the Bible is the older book, and that the Quran says it confirms the Bible (Surah 3:3 and many others).
 
Thus the only way that Islam can exist today is with the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption--however, this doctrine makes no sense:
 
Why was there no mention of this doctrine for the first 400 years of Islam?
 
Why would God ever allow His Word to become corrupted?
 
Where do Muslims get the authority to attack the Bible? I don't find this anywhere in the Quran.
 
I have never encountered a Muslim who can answer these questions. I do not believe they can be answered by Muslims.


Edited by Egwpisteuw - 06 November 2010 at 7:14am
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2010 at 7:29am

 To Egwpisteuw

 Topic:List of Biblical verses not included in modern translation.

 
 There are various Biblical verses which are present in KJV but absent from other Biblical translations such as NIV.

 Most modern textual scholars consider these verses interpolations.

 In the New International Version, the following verses are absent from the main text, but have been translated for inclusion in the footnotes.These verses exist mainly in KJV.

 Matthew 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting (KJV)

 Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost (KJV)

 
Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation (KJV)

 Mark 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear (KJV)

 Mark 9:44/ Mark 9:46 Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched (KJV)

 Mark 16:9-20 The short Gospel according to Mark does not include the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, 12 verses. The long Gospel according to Mark includes these 12 verses!!

 Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses (KJV)

 Mark 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, "And he was numbered with the transgressors (KJV)

 Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left (KJV)

 Luke 23:17 For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast (KJV)

 John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had (KJV)

 John 7:53 to 8:11 The story of the woman that was caught in Adultery does not exist. Old and best Greek copies do not have these verses?!

 Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (KJV)

 
Acts 15:34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still (KJV)

 Acts 24:7 But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands (KJV)

 Acts 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves (KJV)

 Roman 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen (KJV)

  The serious question about the above deleted verses is: Who added them in the beginning? And why? There are big sections that added in Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53 to 8:11. These are clear evidence that the Church has tampered with the New Testament.

 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2010 at 9:08am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

The cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics to Christians is the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption.  However, most Muslims:

1. Do not know the history of this doctrine.

2. Have never thought through the theological implications of this doctrine.

3. Have never thought through the historical implications of this doctrine.

In this thread, I would like to discuss these issues.

History of the Doctrine:

Ibn Hazm (aka Ibn Khazem) was the first Muslim to posit the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption in the 11th century AD.  Thus for the first four centuries of Islamic history this doctrine did not exist. This is in keeping with a literal grammatical reading of the Quran which claims to be " a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture" Surah 10:37

However, Ibn Hazm noticed that the Quran does not live up to the standard which it proclaims:
 
"Ibn-Khazem saw the contradictions between the Qur'an and the Gospels. One obvious example being the Qur'anic text `They slew him not and they crucified him not' Surah 4:156. `Since the Qur'an must be true,' Ibn- Khazem argued, `it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians.' His argument was not based on historical facts, but purely on his own reasoning and on his wish to safeguard the truth of the Qur'an. I. DI MATTEO, (`Il "takhrif" od alterazione della Bibbia secondo i musulmani', Bessarione 38 (1922) 64-111; 223-260; `Le preteze contradizzioni della S. Scrittura secondo Ibn-Hazm', Bessarione 39 (1923) 77-127, E. FRITSCH, op. cit., p. 66.)"

"Nothing could stop him from pursuing this accusation, it seemed the easiest way to attack the opponents. `If we prove the falsehood of their books, they lose the arguments they take from them.' (IBN KHAZEM, Kitab al-fasl fi'l-milah wa'l ahwa'l nikhal, II,6; E. FRITSCH, op cit., p.55) and this led to him eventually making the cynical statement `The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which Allah has left intact as argument against them.' ( IBN KHAZEM, ibid.; E. FRITSCH, op. cit, p. 64)"
 
"Later writers took up the same reasoning, enlarged it and embellished it. The falsification of the Bible was thus asserted by Salikh Ibn-al-Khusain (died 1200AD), Ahmad at-Qarafi (died 1285AD), Sa'id Ibn-Khasan (died 1320AD), Muhammad Ibn-Abi-Talib (died 1327AD), Ibn-Taimija (died 1328AD) and many others. From then on it has become a fixed ingredient of Muslim apologetics."


Theological Implications of the Doctrine:

If God was either unable or unwilling to keep His Word from corruption, then He is not God. If He was not able to keep His Word from corruption then He is not Omnipotent and thus not God. If He was unwilling to keep His Word from Corruption then His attributes of Veracity and Immutability are compromised and He is not God:
 
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.Isaiah 40:8

Historical Implications of the Doctrine:

The historical implications of this doctrine are huge. The Bible is by far the most well attested book of antiquity. The manuscript evidence is much stronger than any other ancient writing. Thus to throw out the Bible as corrupted is to throw out the writings of: Homer, Virgil, Tacitus, Josephus, Julius Caesar, Ovid, Virgil, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristotle, Suetonius, etc., basically all of Ancient History.

Thus, Ibn Hazm's doctrine of Biblical Corruption makes no sense. It should be rejected by the honest Muslim. It is an impediment to the necessary confrontation of the critical question:

What is the real reason why the Quran and the Bible disagree on most major doctrines?


To be honest and frank, I heard of this so-called Doctrine of Biblical Corruption by Ibne Hazm only today. I didn't even know who this Ibne Hazm was.

How did Ibn Hazm come to the conclusion that the Bible was corrupted or forged? I am sure that he concluded that through Qur'aan, because being a Muslim, he must have read the accusations in Qur'aan.

When I read Qur'aan for the first time, it fired my imagination and I sat down reading the Christian Bible and compared the Old Testament with the Jewish Tanakh. I found that verses in the Old Testament had been forged.

And during my studies of the New Testament, I found that verses were indeed forged.

Please take a look at my post no:5 on this thread and let me have your comments on what I presented to Douggg.

Topic: Israel born in a single day

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17685

I do not trust Daniel Pipes, Robert Spencer, Sam Shamoun and other polemic Christians, who willfully misquote, misinform and misreport.

Qur'aan does not even mention the words Bible, the Old Testament and the New Testament. It refers only to the Torah that was given to Moses and the injeel, which was given to Jesus by Allah, the LORD Almighty.

So, naturally the New Testament is definitely not the Injeel as it was given by the Church, not the LORD Almighty.

And when Qur'aan refers to the Torah and the Injeel or simply talks about the past scriptures, it refers to only the truth that went before Qur'aan.

Thus Qur'aan does not say or verify that everything in the OT and the NT, is correct.

For example, it is generally believed that the 1st five books of the OT or the Jewish Tanakh form the Torah. How could Moses have written Joshua? Joshua was definitely not written by Moses. Right?

My point is that it was not only Ibne Hazm, who came up with the criticism. It was Qur'aan that had pointed out the corruption and forgeries.

Please let me have your comments on the forgery in Hebrews. 

Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Quote Egwpisteuw Replybullet Posted: 07 November 2010 at 2:14am

Originally posted by BMZ

To be honest and frank, I heard of this so-called Doctrine of Biblical Corruption by Ibne Hazm only today. I didn't even know who this Ibne Hazm was.

Most Muslims do not, and I find this shocking. Muslims have made this doctrine a cornerstone of their religion, and spend tons of time and effort attacking the Bible, yet they have never taken the time  to study the History of the Doctrine--a history that is very sordid indeed.

Additionally, Muslims have not thought through the horrible implications of this doctrine.  A corrupted Bible leads to Atheism not Islam. It means that God's attributes are compromised--that God Himself is corrupted.

Why would I worship a God that revealed His Word and then let it become corrupted by man? Either He was not able to keep it from becoming corrupted or He was unwilling. Either way such a God is certainly not worthy of worship is He?

Why would God not overrule man and preserve His Word?

How can an eternal God create scripture that is not eternal?

How  can a God of Justice allow mankind to live without reliable scriptures for the entire time period prior to the 7th century AD? How can that be fair to those who lived during that time period?

Originally posted by BMZ

How did Ibn Hazm come to the conclusion that the Bible was corrupted or forged? I am sure that he concluded that through Qur'aan, because being a Muslim, he must have read the accusations in Qur'aan.

Originally posted by BMZ

My point is that it was not only Ibne Hazm, who came up with the criticism. It was Qur'aan that had pointed out the corruption and forgeries.

Ibn Hazm reasoned as follows:

1. The Quran must be true

2. The Quran contradicts the Bible yet it says it confirms the Bible

3. The Quran says the Bible is to be respected

4. Therefore the present text of the Bible must have been corrupted

Of course the problem here is that he started with a faulty assumption. The obvious solution to the problem is that the Quran is not true. Thus, to avoid this conclusion, Ibn Hazm disingenuously invented the Doctrine of Bible Corruption by pulling it out of thin air.

Also, there are no accusations in the Quran that say the Bible has been corrupted. The verses that are commonly adduced to prove this do not mean this at all.

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Topic:List of Biblical verses not included in modern translation.
 
Most modern textual scholars consider these verses interpolations.

Originally posted by BMZ

I found that verses in the Old Testament had been forged.

And during my studies of the New Testament, I found that verses were indeed forged.

Please let me have your comments on the forgery in Hebrews.


Again, my purpose in this thread is to discuss the Theology, Logic, and History of the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption. These are critical issues for Muslims to discuss and understand. To bring in Bible difficulties here would not be appropriate and would short circuit the higher level of discussion that I am proposing.

Originally posted by BMZ

Please take a look at my post no:5 on this thread and let me have your comments on what I presented to Douggg.

Topic: Israel born in a single day

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17685

I will comment on this within that thread.



Edited by Egwpisteuw - 07 November 2010 at 2:30am
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 07 November 2010 at 3:18am

 To Egwpisteuw

 Yes Quran confirms that Jesus is a Prophet of Allah and Quran also confirms that Jesus is a Messiah meaning Christ.Quran confirms that Jesus performed many many miracles.Quran also confirms the Jesus's miraculous birth.Quran also confirms that Jesus was given Injil but at the same time Quran also points out the errors and mistakes in the Bible.It should also be noted that Quran never use the word Bible but it uses the word injil.

 Let's take an example,All the Christians and their scriptures say that Jesus was crucified and then he raised from the dead but the Quran corrects this error by saying that Jesus was not crucified(Surah 4:157).So Quran is a criteria or scale to judge wrong and right.What is confirmed by the Quran it is right and what is not confirmed by the Quran it is wrong.

 Thats why Quran says in Surah 3:3(the verse that you also quoted):

 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

 So Quran when attest the previous scriptures at the same time it also corrects the previous scriptures,points out their errors and mistakes.

 Then you said that
Why would God ever allow His Word to become corrupted?

 It was not God who allow the corruption.God never said that do the corruption in my scriptures.You cannot question the God.It was their people who did it not God.It was the responsibility of the people to protect the word of God from any kind of corruption but when they failed in doing so then God send another Prophet,Prophet Muhammad, with the last and final revelation the Holy Quran but at that time God decided that he himself will protect the Quran not his people because Quran is not for a specific period of time and for a specific nation it is for every nation and it is last and final there is neither any prophet after Muhammad nor any scripture will reveal after Quran so thats why Quran is directly protected by God himself.

 So Quran confirms what is accurate and reliable in the scriptures that you possess today and also specify the errors in these scriptures.

 

 

 

 
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