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Holy Qur'an and Jesus' Trinity |
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Mansoor_ali 
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Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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 Posted: 02 October 2010 at 1:03pm |
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If I were to ask you to take your Sunday School attendance sheet and give me the name of the teacher, the secretary and the substitute you would not think for a moment that I was speaking of just one name. It would be clear that I wanted three names, even though I used the word "name" in singular form. |
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honeto
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Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Posted: 08 October 2010 at 3:34pm |
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Jack,
you admit that the concept of God as a triune God is tught by Jesus 2000 years ago. Even if we suppose for a moment that to be correct, even though it is not in my study of the scripture, the problem is that it still is a new concept. The OT extends beyond thousands of years before Jesus, and surprisingly it does not teach anything like that. And that in itself a living proof that this concept of God was never taught before, it was non-existant.
So, if we really are representing logic and truth and not anything else, there is a link between God as One of the OT and God as One of the Final Testament, the Quran. In between you have something different, something inconsistent, if we assume you are right that NT teaches a tiune God.
My belief is that Jesus (peace be upon him) never professed triune God. According to the NT he always acknowledged God (who he is quoted to have called ABBA, or Father above himself.
Hasan
Edited by honeto - 08 October 2010 at 3:36pm |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Egwpisteuw
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Posted: 10 March 2011 at 11:13am |
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In the Greek, the phrase "the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is:
τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος
in which τὸ ὄνομα (to onoma, the name) is in the accusative case and τοῦ πατρὸς (tou patros, the Father), τοῦ υἱοῦ (tou uiou, the Son) and τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος (tou hagiou pneumatos, the Holy Spirit) are all in the genitive case.
Koine Greek is a very grammatically precise language and the picture being painted here is one of a single fork with three prongs as follows:
-----τοῦ πατρὸς (tou patros, the Father)
τὸ ὄνομα (onoma, name)-----------------τοῦ υἱοῦ (tou uiou, the Son)
-----τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος (the Holy Spirit)
This is EXACTLY what the Trinity is, One God in three persons. Each member of the Trinity is a distinctive person and is God individually and the combination of the three is also God.
This is why Jesus Christ could say:
I and the Father are one John 10:30 because Jesus Christ as the Son (Prong 2) is just as much God as is the Father (Prong 1).
This is the true oneness of God, and just as the Jews of Jesus' day did not understand this:
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, �I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?� 33The Jews answered Him, �For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.� John 10:31-33
So Muhammad also did not understand it:
They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Surah 5:17
This is nothing more than the same unbelief that the Jews of Jesus' day manifested. Edited by Egwpisteuw - 10 March 2011 at 11:25am |
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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us |
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Mansoor_ali
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Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Posted: 13 March 2011 at 1:06pm |
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In the Greek, the phrase "the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is:
τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος
in which τὸ ὄνομα (to onoma, the name) is in the accusative case and τοῦ πατρὸς (tou patros, the Father), τοῦ υἱοῦ (tou uiou, the Son) and τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος (tou hagiou pneumatos, the Holy Spirit) are all in the genitive case.
Koine Greek is a very grammatically precise language and the picture being painted here is one of a single fork with three prongs as follows:
-----τοῦ πατρὸς (tou patros, the Father)
τὸ ὄνομα (onoma, name)-----------------τοῦ υἱοῦ (tou uiou, the Son)
-----τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος (the Holy Spirit)
This is EXACTLY what the Trinity is, One God in three persons. Each member of the Trinity is a distinctive person and is God individually and the combination of the three is also God.[/QUOTE]
To Egwpisteuw Let's look at the context. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach b all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Note in verse 18 clear statement by Jesus that his power had been GIVEN to him. Common sense dictates that the one giving and the one being given are separate entities, thus proving the giver (God) and one given (Jesus) are NOT the same - Jesus is NOT God.
This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context, because beginning at verse John 10:30 we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews.In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One." These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus. |
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Jack Catholic
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Male Joined: 24 March 2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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Posted: 13 March 2011 at 10:07pm |
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Hi, Mansoor_ali,
I haven't posted to you in so long... How are you?
I have been quite buisy with work and family. But I just now looked up and saw a new post to an old string of postings. I have some questions for you...
You posted: "Common sense dictates that the one giving and the one being given are separate entities, thus proving the giver (God) and one given (Jesus) are NOT the same - Jesus is NOT God.
By posting the above, aren't you agreeing with Egwpisteuw when he posted the comment: "..the picture being painted here is one of a single fork with three prongs..." in that the prongs are definately sperate, as you say, though the fork is but one fork? Next in your post, you wrote: "In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One."
You continued, "These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything." Finally, you posted, "In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus." Jesus is speaking of two groups in John 10:28-30: 1) a group that includes "any man" suggesting all men who might wishing to pluck the sheep out of Jesus hand, and 2) "I and the Father" as the second group. Can you show where in John 10:28-30 that the passage states word for word, "My Father, who gave them to me is greater than all of us..."?
Can you also show that the word "all" does not specifically refer to the first of the two groups identified by the words "any man" and not including either the Father or the one referred to by "I" who is Jesus in the second group?
Another logical question... Why would Jesus say "all" to include himself if the context of the passage is in reference to men plucking out of his hand what is in it, for would Jesus be plucking out of his own hand that which he had gathered in it intending to keep?
Just some questions to think about. And yes, the questions are presented with the intention that they be answered.
I hope you are well and that God has blessed you since we last posted to one another,
Jack Catholic Edited by Jack Catholic - 13 March 2011 at 10:12pm |
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Mansoor_ali
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Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Posted: 18 March 2011 at 1:04pm |
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Are you saying that the above analogy represents rightly the concept of trinity?how rightly (three prongs)represent Father,Son,Holy Spirit?even analogy is absolutely wrong.it doesnot represent a concept of trinity accurately. Trinitarias say that each person in the Trinity is God, remember they say Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is also God. Are you telling me that each separate prong is fork?so its mean prong 1 is a fork.prong 2 is a fork.and prong 3 is a fork. we donot say that.we say that these 3 prongs make up a fork.we do not say that each specific prong of the fork is the fork!
I don�t understand why you Christians quote this verse,because what does this verse prove? Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, so why do you quote it?Are you quoting it to try and show that Jesus is equal to the Father? Well that isn�t true, since the Gospel of John shows the opposite, in fact if we quote one verse back we read: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. This is verse 29, it comes right before verse 30, and in verse 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how to you try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me, just a verse before it Jesus says the Father is greater than everyone! In fact this is not the first time that Jesus says the Father is greater than him, he does it again later: 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: my Father is greater than I[(John 14:28) So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him, so how is Jesus equal to the Father when Jesus says the contrary? Now you have come up with a way of trying to explain this verse off,you say that Jesus was talking as a man here, that as a man the Father is greater than him,you try and say that the Father meant he is greater than Jesus in rank and authority and not in essence. However so what did Jesus mean in John 10 when Jesus said the Father is greater than ALL? Jesus placed himself in the category of ALL people, so therefore your will not work for John 10:29. It must be said though that the Christian response does not work for John chapter 14:28 neither, because the Christian argues from silence and is arguing something they have yet to prove. Christians cannot prove that Jesus has 2 natures, they can never get a single quote from the lips of Jesus saying I am man and Divine, that I have 2 natures and I gave one up and took on the man nature, this is non-existent, so therefore the response is from silence provided with no proof or a solid basis. 1-The fact is the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not. 2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine. 3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus. For all these arguments the Christian will say as man Jesus is not all-knowing, as man Jesus receives things from the Father, however so I will kindly ask the Christian bring this proof from the words of Jesus, they shall never be able to do it, this doctrine is an invention and not something to be found from Jesus. So therefore in conclusion, John 10:30 proves nothing in support of the divinity of Jesus, it does not show equality, since Jesus made it clear that the Father is greater than him, so therefore Jesus is not equal with the Father. |
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Mansoor_ali
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Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Posted: 18 March 2011 at 4:57pm |
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To Jack Catholic Note:The following passage is taken by biblical unitarian. Does John 10 :30 prove divinity of Jesus Christ? 1. There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up �one God.� The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what he meant�he and his father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, �he who plants and he who waters are one� (1 Cor. 3:8 - KJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up �one being.� Furthermore, the NIV translates 1 Corinthians 3:8 as �he who plants and he who waters have one purpose.� Why translate the phrase as �are one� in one place, but as �have one purpose� in another place? In this case, translating the same phrase in two different ways obscures the clear meaning of Christ�s statement in John 10:30: Christ always did the Father�s will; he and God have �one purpose.� 2. Christ uses the concept of �being one� in other places, and from them one can see that �one purpose� is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God�s children �one.� In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be �one� as he and God were �one.� We think it is obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being or �substance� just as he and his Father were one being or �substance.� We believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose, a prayer that has not yet been answered. 3. The context of John 10:30 shows conclusively that Jesus was referring to the fact that he had the same purpose as God did. Jesus was speaking about his ability to keep the �sheep,� the believers, who came to him. He said that no one could take them out of his hand and that no one could take them out of his Father�s hand. Then he said that he and the Father were �one,� i.e., had one purpose, which was to keep and protect the sheep. Buzzard, pp. 135 and 136 Farley, pp. 60 and 61 Morgridge, pp. 39-42 Recommended: Is the trinity logically coherent in light of Biblical teachings? |
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Egwpisteuw
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Posted: 19 March 2011 at 5:00am |
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Nonsense. You obviously neglected to keep reading:
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, �I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?� 33The Jews answered Him, �For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.� John 10:31-33
The Jews who were 1.) physically present; 2.) contemporaries of Jesus; 3.)of the same cultural and linguistic milieu as Jesus; took Jesus' statement in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" to mean that he was declaring himself to be God.
Jesus declared His Deity in John 10:30. To deny it is ludicrous.
Edited by Egwpisteuw - 19 March 2011 at 5:02am |
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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us |
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Jack Catholic wrote: