Holy Qur'an and Jesus' Trinity

 

 

 

None Of The Above Verse Are Stateing Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus , Himself Claiming That He Is God Himself . Stop Adding Words To Verse That Are Not There . Doesn't Your Bible Speak Against Those Who Add Words To God Scriptures ? By Doing This Your Saying Your God Makes Mistakes !  

The seed of woman < Genesis 3 ; 15 > The caption of Savation < Job 5 ; 13 - 14 > Wonderful < Isaiah 9 ; 6 ; Judge 13 ; 8 > I am that I am < Ex odus 3 ; 14 > The mighty God < Isaiah 9 ; 6 > Emmanuel < Isaiah 7; 14 > The Rose of Sharon lilly of the valley < Song of Solomon 2 ; 1 > Theprince of pace < Isaiah 9- 6 > The Mediator < 1Timothy 2 ; 5 > The helper < Hebrew 13 ; 6> The Rewarder of Faith < Hebrew11 ; 6 > The Branch < Zachariah 6 ; 12 > A Man of sorrows < Isaiah 53 ; 3 > The Bringer of Good Tidings < Isaiah 41 ; 27 > The Chief Cornerstone < Isaiah 28 ; 16 > The Redeemer < Job 19 ; 25 >

This is only a small list of the different names that are Attributed to The Messiah Yashua Without Even His Name Being Mentioned . I Repeat The Name '' Yashua / Jesus '' IS NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THESE VERSE . HowEver , You Have Christian Will Undoubtedly Tell You That These Verse Are In Fact Speaking About The Messiah Yashua < NOT >
I Again Repeat The Name '' Yashua / Jesus '' IS NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THESE VERSE ..

 

 

Dear Mansoor_ali (and also IssaEl999),

I asked if you weren't agreeing with Egwpisteuw when you posted the comment:  "..the picture being painted here is one of a single fork with three prongs..." in that the prongs are definately separate, as you say, though the fork is but one fork?

 

Rather than answer my question, you asked another, �Are you telling me that each separate prong is fork?  We do not say that each specific prong of the fork is the fork!

Your comment about not believing that each prong of the fork is the fork is more evidence of your belief being identical to the Catholic teachings.  The fork is not a perfect representation of �trinity.�  It is accurate only in that it clearly shows one fork having three prongs. One cannot say that each prong is a fork, though one can truly say that each of the three persons of the Holy Trinity are indeed fully God.  Another analogy can be used to show what is lacking in the fork analogy, but it also has its flaws.  One man can be three persons: a father, a son, and a grandfather all at the same time, each person having a different function, yet each being the same man.  Another analogy with strengths where the fork and man analogy are week, but also having its own mix of weeknesses is that of water which when it is cold is solid ice, when warm is water, and when hot is steam.  Water in all three forms appears and acts different as if not in any way the same material, yet atomically all three are two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen � the same in substance.  Doesn�t the Holy Qur�an say that nature reflects something of the truth of the God who created it?  

In this passage, you assert that

Here are some questions which you didn�t answer:

 

Can you show where in John 10:28-30 that the passage states word for word, "My Father, who gave them to me is greater than all of us..."? 

 

To this question, you did not respond.  This means that you cannot show that the verse does indeed clearly state that all includes Jesus with the word, �us.�  You simply say that it does:  �All includes everyone even Jesus."  Since you can�t prove that the word �all� clearly includes Jesus, then it is clear that your inclusion of Jesus in the meaning of the word, �all,� is simply your own private addition to the meaning of the verses of scripture.  Further proof of this is in your answer to my next question:

 

Can you also show that the word "all" does not specifically refer to the first of the two groups which is identified by the words "any man?"

 

The fact here is that you did not answer this question.  The reason is because you cannot answer it without admitting that the word �all� only refers  to �all men� not including Jesus, as he is connected to the group that is one with God and not with the group that is identified by the words, �all men.�  Grammar itself proves that your argument is based on your own private misunderstanding.  Or is it a misunderstanding taught you by others who themselves do not understand the meaning of the Holy Bible?

 

Another logical question I had asked...  Why would Jesus say "all" to include himself if the context of the passage is in reference to men plucking out of his hand what he had himself gathered to put in it intending to keep?

 

This third question I had asked you also failed to answer.  Is it because in the answering, your position might appear to clearly be private inaccurate interpretation?

 

In your response, you wrote, �Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, so why do you quote it?Are you quoting it to try and show that Jesus is equal to the Father?�

Then you answer the question yourself, �Well that isn�t true, since the Gospel of John shows the opposite.

 

I�m going to stop quoting you here because when you say �...that isn�t true,...� because it is not necessary.  You are absolutely correct.  I am a Trinitarian, a Catholic.  I have never been taught that Jesus IS the same person as the Father.  In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that the Father and the Son are separate persons, though simultaneously they are one and the same God.  This is exactly the same as the prongs of the fork, three separate prongs, but only one fork.  You see, we are back to the original example proposed by our Christian brother Egwpisteuw.  You are trying to say we are wrong when actually you are agreeing with us.

Then, after agreeing with the Catholic Trinitarian teaching which has existed for over 2000 years since before the death of Jesus on the cross, you start to draw some other conclusions.  You assert:

1-The fact is the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.

Now here you have started with a correct statement, that the Father is greater than Jesus, but then you make an assertion that is totally your own private interpretation:  �the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.�  Where in John 10 do you find this assertion?  I do not accept your private interpretation as truth. 

2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine.

You are absolutely correct here, as this is both what the Holy Bible and the Catholic Church teaches.  John writes that Jesus comes forth from the Father, (not a creation) as does his doctrine and his miracles.  You are in agreement with the Catholic Faith here.

 

3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus.

I think here you are taking something that is in the bible and misunderstanding it.  Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.  Jesus is not a man�s own personal word, but God�s word.  One might translate this into a modern idiom by saying that Jesus is God�s Word in action.  Jesus� begging the father to save him from suffering is actually nothing more than Jesus teaching us by his example how we should be handling the threat of suffering.  He in other occasions taught us to imitate him.  Wouldn�t you advise another believer who was facing suffering to be honest with Allah in prayer and plead to be saved from the suffering to come, yet finish with the statement:  �Yet not my will but your will be done?�  Don�t Muslims claim that we must submit to the will of Allah?  Didn�t Jesus teach us by his example and words how to submit to the will of Allah?  Jesus� words and actions do not show him to be powerless in the face of life and death, as you mistakenly interpret into the passages of the Holy Bible, but rather simply constitute a teaching which I think both Muhammad and all Christians can agree with:  that we must submit willingly to the will of God (Allah), which in this case is to die a slow, horrible, suffering death on a cross.

 

After considering the truth of the Christian faith which you show above that you recognize, adding to it a few minor misunderstandings that you seem to have, you then drawn a mistaken conclusion: 

 

�So therefore in conclusion, John 10:30 proves nothing in support of the divinity of Jesus, it does not show equality, since Jesus made it clear that the Father is greater than him, so therefore Jesus is not equal with the Father.�

 

About Biblical Unitarians, I do not accept their teachings as valid.  Biblical Unitarianism was invented by personal surmizings 1600+ years after the death of Jesus on the cross.  Unitarians do not even believe in any need to use the Holy Bible in their versions of the truth about God, nor do they agree with one another about what the real truth is.

 

So don�t bother to tell me any of their opinions which one or two of them might call a doctrine.  I�m not interested in their religious musings or fabricated assertions.

 

You also had said in another previous post in this thread, "If I were to ask you to take your Sunday School attendance sheet and give me the name of the teacher, the secretary and the substitute you would not think for a moment that I was speaking of just one name. It would be clear that I wanted three names, even though I used the word "name" in singular form."

 

My response is simply this:  If you are speaking of three seperate names, then it is poor grammer to write the word name in the singular.  Sorry, but this assertion just does not make gramatical sense.  It is a poor argument to use in formulating ones personal personal religious beliefs...

 

So what about the Holy Qur'an and evidence that it is truly speaking of the Holy Trinity as Catholics have understood it for over 2000 years since Jesus taught it to us?  Can you show quotes that are from the Holy Qur'an and not some other Islamic volume?

 

 

 

 

Egwpisteuw The More I Read Your Post I See You Know Nothing About Your Bible  /  Why You Make Up Thing , That Are Not In Your Bible , You Also Make Claim That ( No One Has Seen God At Any Time '' Yes '' )

 

Your Wromg Again , According To El's Holy Torah Second Scroll Of The Law To The Israelites Exodus  Revealed In The Year 1512 B.C.E. In Aramic   Chapter 33 ;  11 , And I Quote ; And A ( Yahuwa ) < Dawbar > '' Spoke '' To Moses < Fawbeem > '' Face '' To < Fawbeem > '' Face '' , As A < Eesh > '' Male '' Living Being  < Dawbar > '' Speaks '' To His < Rayah > Friend . And He Returned Again To The Camp ; But His < Sharath > '' Servant '' Of The People Joshua , The Son Of Nun '' To Resprout  '' , A Young Boy Did Not Depart The Midst Of The < Ohel > '' Tabernacle '' .

 

Another Trick SOME Christian Use . John 14 ; 9 , And I Quote ; Jesus Said Unto Him , Have I Been So Long ( Time ) With You , And Yet Hast Thou Not Known Me , Philip ? He That Hath Seen Me Hath Seen The Father ; And How Sayest Thou Then , Show Us The Father ?

 

The Above Verse Is Written In Red , And Some Christian Minister / Pastors / Teacher Etc Say It Mean The Blood Of Christ / Jesus Is Talking This Is Another Trick To Make Christian Believe It Saying Something It Not . Meaning In The Above Post Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus ( Is -Not Calling Himself God ) . Being Christians Are Not Allow To Question Their Christian Minister / Pastors / Teacher Etc Because Of Being Call The Devil / Satan Etc And Kick Out Of Their House Of Worship And Only Believe / Accept What They're Told ,