Holy Qur&#039;an and Jesus&#039; Trinity

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Posted: 10 March 2011 at 11:13am

Jack Catholic wrote:

Matthew 28:19
" Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

Notice in the quoted passage the word, "name," a singular word referring to Allah, yet followed by three names: 1) "Father," 2) "Son," and 3) "Holy Spirit." Since the beginning of the Christian faith, the Apostles and those whom they instructed have understood this to mean one God...in three persons. This has never been understood by Catholics or Orthodox Christians to referr to three seperate gods, but rather one and only one God.

In the Greek, the phrase "the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is:

τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος

in which τὸ ὄνομα (to onoma, the name) is in the accusative case and τοῦ πατρὸς (tou patros, the Father), τοῦ υἱοῦ (tou uiou, the Son) and τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος (tou hagiou pneumatos, the Holy Spirit) are all in the genitive case.

Koine Greek is a very grammatically precise language and the picture being painted here is one of a single fork with three prongs as follows:

-----τοῦ πατρὸς (tou patros, the Father)

τὸ ὄνομα (onoma, name)-----------------τοῦ υἱοῦ (tou uiou, the Son)

-----τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος (the Holy Spirit)

This is EXACTLY what the Trinity is, One God in three persons. Each member of the Trinity is a distinctive person and is God individually and the combination of the three is also God.

This is why Jesus Christ could say:

I and the Father are one John 10:30 because Jesus Christ as the Son (Prong 2) is just as much God as is the Father (Prong 1).

This is the true oneness of God, and just as the Jews of Jesus' day did not understand this:

31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, �I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?� 33The Jews answered Him, �For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.� John 10:31-33

So Muhammad also did not understand it:

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Surah 5:17

This is nothing more than the same unbelief that the Jews of Jesus' day manifested.

Edited by Egwpisteuw - 10 March 2011 at 11:25am

Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us

honeto

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Posted: 08 October 2010 at 3:34pm

Jack,

you admit that the concept of God as a triune God is tught by Jesus 2000 years ago. Even if we suppose for a moment that to be correct, even though it is not in my study of the scripture, the problem is that it still is a new concept. The OT extends beyond thousands of years before Jesus, and surprisingly it does not teach anything like that. And that in itself a living proof that this concept of God was never taught before, it was non-existant.

So, if we really are representing logic and truth and not anything else, there is a link between God as One of the OT and God as One of the Final Testament, the Quran. In between you have something different, something inconsistent, if we assume you are right that NT teaches a tiune God.

My belief is that Jesus (peace be upon him) never professed triune God. According to the NT he always acknowledged God (who he is quoted to have called ABBA, or Father above himself.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 08 October 2010 at 3:36pm

The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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Posted: 02 October 2010 at 1:03pm

Jack Catholic wrote:

Matthew 28:19
" Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

If I were to ask you to take your Sunday School attendance sheet and give me the name of the teacher, the secretary and the substitute you would not think for a moment that I was speaking of just one name. It would be clear that I wanted three names, even though I used the word "name" in singular form.

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Posted: 28 September 2010 at 5:52am

Jack Catholic wrote:

Matthew 28:19
" Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

Here is reply by BiblicalUnitarian:

It is sometimes stated that the Father, Son and spirit have one �name,� so they must be one. It is a basic tenet of Trinitarian doctrine not to �confound the persons� (Athanasian Creed), and it does indeed confound the persons to call all three of them by one �name,� especially since no such �name� is ever given in Scripture (�God� is not a name). If the verse were teaching Trinitarian doctrine and mentioned the three �persons,� then it should use the word �names.� There is a much better explanation for why �name� is used in the singular.

A study of the culture and language shows that the word �name� stood for �authority.� Examples are very numerous, but space allows only a small selection. Deuteronomy 18:5 and 7 speak of serving in the �name� (authority) of the Lord. Deuteronomy 18:22 speaks of prophesying in the �name� (authority) of the Lord. In 1 Samuel 17:45, David attacked Goliath in the �name� (authority) of the Lord, and he blessed the people in the �name� (authority) of the Lord. In 2 Kings 2:24, Elisha cursed troublemakers in the �name� (authority) of the Lord. These scriptures are only a small sample, but they are very clear. If the modern versions of Matthew 28:19 are correct (which we doubt, see above), then we would still not see this verse as proving the Trinity. Rather, they would be showing the importance of the three: the Father who is God, the Son (who was given authority by God [Matt. 28:18]) and the holy spirit, which is the gift of God.

Reply by brother Ibn Anwar

The volumnuous book What Did Jesus Really Say? provides a good explanation for the verse that does away with the Trinitarian argument that because the verse uses the word name in the singular form to describe three names this means that the three are one like 1 John 5:7. Unfortunately(for Trinitarians), as how What Did Jesus Really Say has illustrated such an argument does not hold much weight:

�Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:�
If ex-President George Bush told General Norman Schwartzkopf to �Go ye therefore, and speak to the Iraqis, chastising them in the name of the United States, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union,� does this require that these three countries are one physical country? They may be one in purpose and in their goals but this does in no way require that they are the same physical entity.(Misha�al ibn Abdullah. What Did Jesus Really Say?(1996). Islamic Assembly of North America. p. 26)

Another Reply

The word "name" is singular

The Greek word for "name" in this passage is singular and not plural. It does not say, "into the names of," but "into the name of." Because it is singular, the Trinitarian argues that it must refer to one thing. This is absolutely correct. However they also claim that because three persons follow, it also therefore follows that the one thing to which this word refers is one identity which is therefore the one Trinity of three persons, that is, one "God." This is totally incorrect.

Here Jesus commands his disciples to baptize "in the name of." In the ancient Jewish world, to do something in someone's name meant to do something under another person's authority, character, reputation, plan and purpose. It implies the idea that a subject of that authority is doing the authority's will for that authority. For example, the phrase "Stop in the name of the Monarchy" does not refer to the King's personal name, his surname nor the King and Queen's personal or surnames together. It refers to the plan and purpose and law of the Monarchy as established by their authority. And now we shall see this is exactly how the term is used at Matthew 28:19. In verse 18, Jesus declares, "all authority in heaven and earth is given to me." He then says, "therefore go." It is a basic tenet of hermeneutics that when one sees the word "therefore" one asks what the word "therefore" is there for. Jesus is expressing a cause and effect statement. Because he has been given all authority, the disciples are therefore to go out and baptize all nations "in the name of." As Jesus says in the Gospel of John, "As the Father sent me, now I also send you. Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22). In other words, Jesus has been given the authority to have them do things in the name of his Father, who gave him that authority by the Holy Spirit in his resurrection, with the goal of bringing all nations into subjection to the authority of God. The authority of the Father is given to the Son in the Holy Spirit in which he rose from the dead in the very same way Jesus gives his apostles authority. This is why Peter says in reference to Jesus' resurrection, "God has made this Jesus.... 'Lord.'" The word 'Lord' is a word which indicates authority and Jesus was made Lord in his resurrection. This is the same idea as Matthew 28:18, "all authority... is given to me."(Source)

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Posted: 26 September 2010 at 2:41am

Jack Catholic wrote:

About Surah 4:171, I understand up to the point where it says, ��and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him:� This phrase I do not understand. It�s grammer is not very clear to me. Would you be so kind as to explain it? Thank you�

I quote Ibn Kathir:

(171. O People of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah except the truth. Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three!'' Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One God, hallowed be He above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.)

Prohibiting the People of the Book From Going to Extremes in Religion

Allah forbids the People of the Scriptures from going to extremes in religion, which is a common trait of theirs, especially among the Christians. The Christians exaggerated over `Isa until they elevated him above the grade that Allah gave him. They elevated him from the rank of prophethood to being a god, whom they worshipped just as they worshipped Allah. They exaggerated even more in the case of those who they claim were his followers, claiming that they were inspired, thus following every word they uttered whether true or false, be it guidance or misguidance, truth or lies. This is why Allah said,

(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah.) Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(Do not unduly praise me like the Christians exaggerated over `Isa, son of Maryam. Verily, I am only a servant, so say, `Allah's servant and His Messenger.') This is the wording of Al-Bukhari. Imam Ahmad recorded that Anas bin Malik said that a man once said, "O Muhammad! You are our master and the son of our master, our most righteous person and the son of our most righteous person...'' The Messenger of Allah said,

(O people! Say what you have to say, but do not allow Shaytan to trick you. I am Muhammad bin `Abdullah, Allah's servant and Messenger. By Allah! I do not like that you elevate me above the rank that Allah has granted me.) Allah's statement,

(nor say of Allah except the truth.) means, do not lie and claim that Allah has a wife or a son, Allah is far holier than what they attribute to Him. Allah is glorified, praised, and honored in His might, grandure and greatness, and there is no deity worthy of worship nor Lord but Him. Allah said;

(Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him;) `Isa is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, `Be', and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. `Isa was a word from Allah that He bestowed on Maryam, meaning He created him with the word `Be' that He sent with Jibril to Maryam. Jibril blew the life of `Isa into Maryam by Allah's leave, and `Isa came to existence as a result. This incident was in place of the normal conception between man and woman that results in children. This is why `Isa was a word and a Ruh (spirit) created by Allah, as he had no father to conceive him. Rather, he came to existence through the word that Allah uttered, `Be,' and he was, through the life that Allah sent with Jibril. Allah said,

(Al-Masih [`Isa], son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam] was a Siddiqah. They both ate food.) And Allah said,

(Verily, the likeness of `Isa before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be! ـ and he was.)

(And she who guarded her chastity, We breathed into her (garment) and We made her and her son [`Isa] a sign for all that exits.) (21:91)

(And Maryam, the daughter of `Imran who guarded her chastity,) and Allah said concerning the Messiah,

(He [`Isa] was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him.)

The Meaning of "His Word and a spirit from Him

`Abdur-Razzaq narrated that Ma`mar said that Qatadah said that the Ayah,

(And His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him;) means, He said,

(Be) and he was. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ahmad bin Sinan Al-Wasiti said that he heard Shadh bin Yahya saying about Allah's statement,

(and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him;) "`Isa was not the word. Rather, `Isa came to existence because of the word.'' Al-Bukhari recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said that the Prophet said,

(If anyone testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger, and that `Isa is Allah's servant and Messenger and His Word which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true and Hell is true, then Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he performed.) In another narration, the Prophet said,

(...through any of the eight doors of Paradise he wishes.) Muslim also recorded it. Therefore, `Ruh from Allah', in the Ayah and the Hadith is similar to Allah's statement,

(And has subjected to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; it is all from Him.) meaning, from His creation. `from Him' does not mean that it is a part of Him, as the Christians claim, may Allah's continued curses be upon them. Saying that something is from Allah, such as the spirit of Allah, the she-camel of Allah or the House of Allah, is meant to honor such items. Allah said,

(This is the she-camel of Allah...) and,

(and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it.) An authentic Hadith states,

(I will enter on my Lord in His Home) All these examples are meant to honor such items when they are attributed to Allah in this manner. Allah said,

(so believe in Allah and His Messengers.) believe that Allah is One and Alone and that He does not have a son or wife. Know and be certain that `Isa is the servant and Messenger of Allah. Allah said after that,

(Say not: "Three!") do not elevate `Isa and his mother to be gods with Allah. Allah is far holier than what they attribute to Him. In Surat Al-Ma'idah (chapter 5), Allah said,

(Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three.'' But there is none who has the right to be worshipped but One God.) Allah said by the end of the same Surah,

(And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me''') and in its beginning,

(Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam.) The Christians, may Allah curse them, have no limit to their disbelief because of their ignorance, so their deviant statements and their misguidance grows. Some of them believe that `Isa is Allah, some believe that he is one in a trinity and some believe that he is the son of Allah. Their beliefs and creeds are numerous and contradict each other, prompting some people to say that if ten Christians meet, they would end up with eleven sects!

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Posted: 25 September 2010 at 11:26pm

Salam/Peace,

One scholar said that's the reason why there is a special discipline/subject named "theology", because the difficulties to explain "trinity". 3 in 1, 1 in 3, god have son, god have father etc. It is confusing.

Salam/Peace,

Semar

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Posted: 25 September 2010 at 1:06pm

IMHO I think what is essentially problematic for Muslims and the Koran concerning the trinity is that you have three essences of One entity. The three essences are seperate (but equal). The problem here is the seperate essences (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). If the Father was the Son, there would be no need to say Father + Son, you'd say Son. Similiar with the Holy Spirit. I believe long ago I made a thread concerning this issue concerning the trinity. Basically it would be problematic if I said my house is only composed of walls. It's one house with many compartments. but I simply cannot say my house is simply made up of walls.

Regardless whether my house is composed of walls and floors its still one house (made up of a multiplicity of objects in the interior). Although God has no "interior" God is said to have many qualities such as all-powerful, good, etc which comparable to a house could have some relationship.

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