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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Obviously, it is not a literal death. In the same sense, when Jesus was raised, he was not literally dead. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Actually, in this age of science which denies the supernatural, it would have been more fitting that a supernatural miracle would have occurred. Using a computer to find codes is not miraculous! Healing the sick is miraculous. Splitting a large body of water is miraculous. Bringing a book which cannot be imitated is miraculous. Using a computer to find a code? Not miraculous! Again I say, if he had found this code using just a pen and paper, that would have been quite an accomplishment. But I can just imagine RK sitting in his office, fiddling around with a computer, looking for a code. It would have been like Moses using a bucket to remove the water that was blocking the Israelites from escaping the pharaoh. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Oh this is such nonsense. By saying that Muhammad (pbuh) had no idea there was a code when there was is pure heresy. I wonder what Muhammad (pbuh) was thinking when God revealed this verse: 52:34 "Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!" He must have been wondering what this meant (as you believe this is referring to the code). Imagine him reciting this verse, challenging the unbelievers to produce something like the Quran, but not actually understanding the challenge himself. This is why RK was a liar and a heretic. He essentially says that God purposely hid somethings about the Quran from His beloved messenger, to reveal it 1400 years after. Pure nonsense. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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Not in the least. Details of the signs would not mean the signs have come. If the signs have come, then they have been fulfilled. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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haris30432
Senior Member Male Joined: 23 January 2010 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 145 |
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I showed you several translations which show that the verse has always been interpreted as not being in the past tense, until the arrival of the self-proclaimed "messenger" RK. You tried to show that RK was right by using an internet translator. When you were once again refuted, you resorted to attacking the translators for different wordings, as if this somehow proves your initial assertion! How silly you are! The last part you wrote is hilarious! "Dont just put the whole verse coz it will just pick up any translation from the web and give that as a result.I always got "Was" in the result"! This only shows that you are shabby researcher. To rely on internet translators is obviously not the way to go, as I have shown. Like ive repeated many times already, uve only presented translations which are different in interpretations and understandings to prove that RK is wrong.Internet Translators are only one of the many sources to verify, they are certainly not the only one and im fully aware of that and just becoz the majority believes or interpretes differently from a person doesnt make him or her wrong.Some of the translations say "will believe" and some "must believe".Therefore,how can they be any more reliable than internet translators ?And you have not refuted anything.You chose to disregard the proof presented and called them unreliable simply becoz u dont know how to effectively use internet translators.The different wordings in the translations shows different interpretations and understandings.I did not attack the translations ,it is you who called them "unclear and ambiguous" and admitted that they have errors which was very surprising since you called them "reputed" and tried to present them as ur proof initially. So since youve yourself admitted that they have errors and are unclear and ambiguous,i dont see how they prove RK wrong.And also i never said that this somehow proves RK right but neither do they disprove him.The bottom line is that you have failed to present any substantial proof to prove RK's translation wrong.So dont claim that uve proven RK's translation wrong. Um, they are going one way because none of them interpreted the verse as being in the past tense! RK is alone in this regard!
Ok i agree .So what??!Does that prove anything??? Again, you are only speculating. It is perfectly possible that some people would still refuse to believe in him. That has been the case before. Weren't there unbelievers among the Jews, even after they witnessed the miracles performed by Moses? We could ask the same question. Why wouldn't they have believed? Well one of the major purposes of jesus's return is to prove to the POB that he is still alive.And the majority of the so called scholars believe that everyone of the POB will believe in him after his second coming.So on what basis are u saying that there will still be some unbelievers amoung the Jews and christians after his descend ?!!!!!!Check out the below.
(Qummi Commentary, Vol. 1, p. 158) Our Prophet (saas) interpreted the verse �There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them� (Surat an-Nisa�, 159), as indicated in the above hadith.
So there u have it!Plus your conclusion would make 7 out of the 9 reputed translations that you presented to be completely wrong as they clearly say that EVERYONE of the jews and christians will believe in Jesus before his death. Pickthall: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them - Shakir: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them. Arberry: There is not one of the People of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them. Bewley: There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Rising he will be a witness against them. Palmer: And there shall not be one of the people of the Book but shall believe in him before his death; and on the day of judgment he shall be a witness against them. Sale: And there shall not be one of those who have received the scriptures, who shall not believe in him, before his death; and on the day of resurrection he shall be a witness against them. Asad: Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus; and on the Day of Resurrection he [himself] shall bear witness to the truth against them. Hilarious! Either God took his life (i.e. killed him) or He actually just raised him up alive. The latter makes more sense, as why would God kill His own prophet? Why didn't He do that with the other prophets and messengers who were killed by the unbelievers? God terminating ones life does not essentially mean that he killed the person.What nonsense u utter!If that was the case all the time, u should then say GOD killed all his prophets!!Jesus's soul was simply raised and his body was left to appear alive to the disbelievers.They tortured and crucified a soulless body which appeared to be alive.Why is this so difficult to imagine??!That wud seem more logical and more convincing to anyone than the claim that GOD raised Jesus's body and soul together to heaven and then he brought down another body of man who looks exactly like him and put him on the cross to be crucified and tortured or whatever. Now as to y GOD didnt do that with other Prophets who were killed , i really dont know.God chooses to do whatever he wills.The below verses could possibly be the reason for it im not sure.GOD knows best.
[17:55] Your Lord is the best knower of everyone in the heavens and the earth. In accordance with this knowledge, we preferred some prophets over others. For example, we gave David the Psalms.
[2:253] These messengers; we blessed some of them more than others. For example, GOD spoke to one, and we raised some of them to higher ranks. And we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had GOD willed, their followers would not have fought with each other, after the clear proofs had come to them. Instead, they disputed among themselves; some of them believed, and some disbelieved. Had GOD willed, they would not have fought. Everything is in accordance with GOD's will.
Yeah, and he failed to prove that he was sent by God, and to compensate, he simply tried to change the meaning of the Quran. He was simply just another one of the many liars that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) warned would arise in the Ummah.
Oh well he proved he was sent by GOD supported by a miracle in the Quran but those who chose not to see it due to nothing but EGO and ignorance cannot and will not ever see the truth.And he did not change anything in the Quran.He only exposed the corruptions that some people did with the Quran by GOD's leave.Ofcourse the corrupters will not accept it and accuse him of corrupting it,not very surprising at all!They like many from the previous generations are stuck in their innovations, false prohibitions and idolization of religious scholars and messengers.Not a single person who claimed messengership after Prophet Muhammad,advocated the worship Of GOD alone or upholding the Quran alone except Rashad Khalifa.Many people who have become submitters today do not believe in him just becoz of the math miracle but also based on what he preached.This man was the only man of his time,after Prophet Muhammad who advocated the worship of GOD alone in its perfect and pure form.As clearly mentioned in the Quran,he reminded people to devote their Salats,fasting,Hajj,Zakat etc ,their religion as a whole to GOD alone.He told people not to mention any other names beside Allah's name in their salats,he reminded people to follow the Quranic instructions and pay the Zakat on the day of receiveing income and not one time in an year thereby denying the constant flow of money to the poor and making them wait for a whole year for their right ,Zakat which is the poors' HAQ(right).He reminded people to uphold Allah's words alone ie the Quran alone and not disregard it as this was the same mistake that was committed by those who received the scripture before.They also claimed to follow the scripture but they were infact like many today upholding the opinions and teachings of their scholars besides the actual word of GOD.He did not seek money or fame for whatever he was doing.This man simply qualified in all the Quranic criterias of a messenger ,he was supported with a miracle,he advocated the worship of GOD alone and sought no wages.
[26:210] The devils can never reveal this. *26:210 A false messenger is a messenger of Satan, for he is the fabricator of the most horrendous lie. Such a messenger can never denounce idolatry, or preach the worship of God ALONE.
[30:30] Therefore, you shall devote yourself to the religion of strict monotheism. Such is the natural instinct placed into the people by GOD. Such creation of GOD will never change. This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know. Rejecting The Messengers: A Tragic Human Trait* [36:13] Cite for them the example of people in a community that received the messengers.
*36:13-27 God's messengers have proof, advocate God alone, and do not ask for money. Ridiculing The Messengers: A Tragic Human Trait*
[36:30] How sorry is the people's condition! Every time a messenger went to them, they always ridiculed him. *36:30 If the messenger presents solid proof of messengership, advocates the worship of God alone, and does not ask us for money, why should we not believe? The Greatest Criterion*
Edited by haris30432 - 10 May 2010 at 12:25am |
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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!
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haris30432
Senior Member Male Joined: 23 January 2010 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 145 |
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Except the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought proof. He also showed that the Jews and Christians' own books pointed to his arrival. Does the Quran point to the arrival of another messenger? Absolutely not! That is why the Qadianis, the Submitters and all the other groups who claimed that messengers came after Muhammad (pbuh) are rightly labeled as heretics. The Quran says that he was the last to come, so right there is evidence that RK was a liar. You tried to prove that was not the case by changing the difference between a prophet and a messenger, but to no avail.
[4:79] Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you. We have sent you as a messenger to the people,* and GOD suffices as witness. *4:79 Muhammad was not given any proof of prophethood. Hence the expression "God suffices as a witness". Quran: Muhammad's Miracle*
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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!
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haris30432
Senior Member Male Joined: 23 January 2010 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 145 |
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Obviously, it is not a literal death. In the same sense, when Jesus was raised, he was not literally dead.
Oh this is such nonsense. By saying that Muhammad (pbuh) had no idea there was a code when there was is pure heresy. I wonder what Muhammad (pbuh) was thinking when God revealed this verse: 52:34 "Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!" He must have been wondering what this meant (as you believe this is referring to the code). Imagine him reciting this verse, challenging the unbelievers to produce something like the Quran, but not actually understanding the challenge himself. This is why RK was a liar and a heretic. He essentially says that God purposely hid somethings about the Quran from His beloved messenger, to reveal it 1400 years after. Pure nonsense.
The Quranic initials are called as proofs or signs of this divine scripture.How are they proofs or signs of the Quran??Where is the Prophet's explanation to this???If there was ,why wasnt such an important information recorded??
[13:1] A. L. M. R.* These (letters) are proofs of this scripture. What is revealed to you from your Lord is the truth, but most people do not believe. *13:1 These initials constitute a major component of the Quran's built-in proof of divine authorship, the miraculous mathematical code. [15:1] A.L.R.* These (letters) are proofs of this scripture; a profound Quran. Your own Hadiths say the following :)
"This was apparently the view of the four Right-Guided Caliphs summarized in these words of Abu Bakr: "In every divine writ (kitab) there is [an element of] mystery ? and the mystery of the Qur'an is [indicated] in the openings of [some of] the surahs."
This mystery was solved through GOD's messenger of the covenant.
The common belief so far was that it was the literary excellence of the Quran that was the challenge.However many like Taha hussein have claimed to have made Surahs similar to those in the Quran.So clearly the challenge is the math in the Quran.God reveals what he chooses to whomever he pleases and only teaches what he chooses to teach.Its as simple as that.
[36:69] What we taught him (the messenger) was not poetry, nor is he (a poet). This is but a formidable proof,* and a profound Quran.
Miracle of the Quran to be Unveiled After Muhammad* Edited by haris30432 - 09 May 2010 at 11:58pm |
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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!
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islamispeace
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187 |
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No, its because I am not crazy enough to use internet translators as my guides and I showed you an example of why I don't use them. Not only did my example show the unreliability of internet translators, it showed that the translations are often just jibberish. Hence, human translators are the way to go. Now, while the wording has varied between translations (which is probably due to the individual's varying mastery of Arabic), they still agree on the nature of the verse, which is talking about the future.
Wrong, I said "some translations" are unclear and ambiguous". Way to twist my words. This is typical.
Why is that surprising? Translations of the Quran are human endeavors, so why would there not be errors? Only the Arabic is error-free, but translations can indeed contain errors. That does not mean they should be rejected. Those translations are indeed much more reputable than the virtual rewrite of RK. That is why is he rightfully rejected as a heretic. He purposefully tried to alter the meanings of various verses to fit his own views.
First of all, why do I need to prove RK wrong? He is in the minority here. So, if you want to say that he was right, the burden of proof is on you to prove it, not on me to prove that he was wrong. You need to prove that the majority of translators are wrong that RK is right.
Yeah, it shows that RK's claim is a simple revisionist attempt, as the traditional view is that the verse is talking about the future.
Again, this is about the future, so none of us can say for sure what exactly will happen. In light of past cases, like with Moses and the Jews, I can see why it is at least possible that some of the people of the book will still not believe. Some humans have a tendency to be stubborn, even in the face of proof. I am not saying that there will definitely be some who do not believe.
Where are you getting this from? None of the translations actually say that "some will not believe". The translations only say either that the people of the book "must believe in him" or "will believe" or "none of them will not believe (meaning they will believe). At most what some of them say is that those who don't believe will be testified against by Jesus on the Day of Judgment. That is not the same as saying that "some will definitely not believe". None of them actually say that. They are not contradicting the scholarly opinions. RK is the only one who clearly contradicts the traditional opinion.
What happened to the body then? Concerning the other prophets, why weren't they rescued in a similar manner? Their lives were not "terminated", rather they were killed by the unbelievers. Also, the other prophets who were not killed were brought back to their Lord after they had performed their missions. What was Jesus' mission, and why he known as the Messiah? What does Messiah mean in Islam?
Perhaps because He had more planned for Jesus. He chose him to be the Messiah. But, even then, he will be a follower of Muhammad (pbuh).
Listen to you! Ego? Where is the ego of the person who claims to be a messenger of God who had to finish the job of the greatest messenger, Muhammad (pbuh)? Now that is an egotistical person.
Sure, is that why he claimed that Satan had inserted verses into the Quran, even though God says in the Quran that He would protect it from corruption (Al-Hijr: 9)? Is that why he translated Al-Baqarah:30 in the following way: Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know." |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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