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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Community Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 August 2005 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by abujamal abujamal wrote:

In case anymore proof was required about this being a war against Islam.

Prime Minister Blair's Speech

Published: July 16, 2005

The following is extracts of the text of the speech delivered by Prime Minister Tony Blair on Saturday, July 16, 2005.

"What we are confronting here is an evil ideology.....This is the battle that must be won, a battle not just about the terrorist methods but their views. Not just their barbaric acts, but their barbaric ideas. Not only what they do but what they think and the thinking they would impose on others." If you compare this statement of Blair as proof that this is a war against islam then i ask you, have the idolators of Mekka and the enemies of the faithful in the time of the prophet ever been able to call islam barbaric or cruel? no, the only reason they could hold against the muslims was their faith in one god and them calling to it, this ment the idolator leaders would lose people under them, they would lose power and social position which they did not wish to give up. So they made the barbaric cruel choice to opress and kill the faithful to make them leave their faith. The irony is that now this barbaric and cruel choice is made by so called muslims who wish to force their ways upon the rest through killing and opressing those who do not wish to follow their ways. The Prophet never hungered for power, the idolators did so they chose to fight against him and the faithful and this forced the faithful to defend their ownselves and their faith, and they became victorious and thus the prophet had to govern a state. Allah gives power to whom He wishes. And all power belongs to Allah, the messenger and the faithful. So what is this with leaders of groups hungering for power? is it not enough for them that all power belongs to Allah, the messenger and the true faithful? the answer is obviously no, they try to gain more power by being taghoot(someone who forces himself upon people to be feared and worshipped) and they do this through making methodologies and claims that the prophet said something which should be obeyed, and if one does not he will go to hell, they use the people's fear of hell fire to become blind for the mercy of Allah which is found in the koran for those who fear Him alone. They make people afraid not of Allah who's speech and commands are clear in the koran but through their words which they claim come from the prophet and need to be obeyed. People have the choice to listen to them or not, and the weakness and untruthfulness in people listening to them is their false depenedence on people for guidance instead of dependence on only Allah for guidance, especially when their claims are not accepted by the heart because the heart has this thing that when it hears something that is unjust it does not want it, but when people chose to not even consider their own heart or their heart being so hard that they can not even feel when something is unjust and actually take up arms to kill and fight those who do not have a wish for their ideology, this is when someone has become unjust, and they will either leave this ideology later on when the pain of the heart becomes too unbarable or their hearts become harder then stones and keep on the same course untill they are ruined. Because killing those who do not fight you for your faith or make you leave your homes is unjust and in no way the way of our prophet who came with the truth. And you can not blame those who deffend themselves against violent ideologies. Because then you would blame the prophet and the faithful who defended themselves against the violent ideology of the polytheists of Arabia.  True Guidance is the guidance of Allah, even the messenger can not guide whom he wishes. But Allah guides whom He wishes.

"Neither is it true that they have no demands. They do. It is just that no sane person would negotiate on them. " !!!!

"They demand the elimination of Israel; the withdrawal of all westerners from Muslim countries, irrespective of the wishes of people and Government; the establishment of effectively Taleban states and Sharia law in the Arab world en route to one Caliphate of all Muslim nations."

All Muslims wish to see the liberation of ALL of Palestine (not just the west Bank & Gaza), see the expulsion of the western occupation, the establishment of Sharia law and a single Islamic leadership (Caliphate) for all the Muslims. Palestine is not the name of that area, the Filisteens where the name Palestine comes from got fought against and killed by the Messenger of Allah Mosaa(Moses the peace is upon him) and the faithful with him. So do you wish the judgement of ignorance? humku al jaahiliyaa is not what the true faithful wish, so for a faithful person to even say that the area is called Palestine is unjust, because then he grabs back to the judgement of the time of ignorance, the time when the Filistinieen ruled that area, and they were polytheists and got defeated by the faithful bani israeel and it became The Holy Land.

Thanks to thse kind of comments, it helps Muslims to see even clearer than before that this indeed is a war to suppress Islam and confine it to the worships in a new religion called "Moderate Islam". You must agree that you can practise your faith and call to it in the whole western world, and they do not have to accept it and they can argue back and say whatever they want to, but when they start killing the faithful because of them practising their faith or calling to it, this is when the true faithful will take up the sword against them again, because the prophet and the faithful did not take up a sword against those who chose to be their enemies untill they took up the sword first to kill the faithful because of their faith. So if you wish to follow the sunnah there it is, in the koran. And since the western world implemented religious freedom the true faithful stopped fighting them. And it is the faith blood and sweat of the prophet, the faithful and the faithful after them who worked for this and achieved it. Because in my view religious freedom came to be because of the threat posed by those true muslims who fought against those who killed and opressed the faithful for their faith, so instead of fighting against those faithful and being over run eventually as was the case with all the other nations who chose to kill the faithful and forbid their faith, they chose to implement religious freedom and with this the need to fight them came to an end.  But when some groups think they have enough following and enough resources to go out and kill those who oppose their barabaric and cruel ideologies, this is when they meet the steel and fire of the armies. Why is it that when these mostly arab types read the koran and read "to warn from a fierce violence from His side" in surat 18 the cave they apply it to the rest of the world who can not even read arabic instead of their ownselves? don't they see they speak arabic and it came in their language? so to who is the warning really directed? the truth is they do not listen to the words of Allah and reflect upon them but rather listen to the explanations and reflections of leaders who imposed themselves on them to be followed and whom they chose to follow. The warning for a fierce violence from His side stands because in my view arabs have no excuse, the book came in their language, it has not been altered like the bible and torah. And their choice to disregard the speech of Allah for the speech of men is a very bad choice, and they work their own ruin if they choose the path of violence for the sake of the speech of men they idolize. So the advices are fear Allah alone so that you may be shown mercy. And have faith in Allah and disbelieve in the taghoot(one who forces himself upon people to be worshipped besides Allah, one who puts baseless fears into people as to gain power over them)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2005 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by jibreel jibreel wrote:

And lets not even start body counts teh U.S. killed while claiming Sadam had the WMOD.


What?  You're just presuming for us all?  Don't think so..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2005 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Community Community wrote:

Originally posted by abujamal abujamal wrote:

In case anymore proof was required about this being a war against Islam.

Prime Minister Blair's Speech

Published: July 16, 2005

The following is extracts of the text of the speech delivered by Prime Minister Tony Blair on Saturday, July 16, 2005.

"What we are confronting here is an evil ideology.....This is the battle that must be won, a battle not just about the terrorist methods but their views. Not just their barbaric acts, but their barbaric ideas. Not only what they do but what they think and the thinking they would impose on others." If you compare this statement of Blair as proof that this is a war against islam then i ask you, have the idolators of Mekka and the enemies of the faithful in the time of the prophet ever been able to call islam barbaric or cruel? no, the only reason they could hold against the muslims was their faith in one god and them calling to it, this ment the idolator leaders would lose people under them, they would lose power and social position which they did not wish to give up. So they made the barbaric cruel choice to opress and kill the faithful to make them leave their faith. The irony is that now this barbaric and cruel choice is made by so called muslims who wish to force their ways upon the rest through killing and opressing those who do not wish to follow their ways. The Prophet never hungered for power, the idolators did so they chose to fight against him and the faithful and this forced the faithful to defend their ownselves and their faith, and they became victorious and thus the prophet had to govern a state. Allah gives power to whom He wishes. And all power belongs to Allah, the messenger and the faithful. So what is this with leaders of groups hungering for power? is it not enough for them that all power belongs to Allah, the messenger and the true faithful? the answer is obviously no, they try to gain more power by being taghoot(someone who forces himself upon people to be feared and worshipped) and they do this through making methodologies and claims that the prophet said something which should be obeyed, and if one does not he will go to hell, they use the people's fear of hell fire to become blind for the mercy of Allah which is found in the koran for those who fear Him alone. They make people afraid not of Allah who's speech and commands are clear in the koran but through their words which they claim come from the prophet and need to be obeyed. People have the choice to listen to them or not, and the weakness and untruthfulness in people listening to them is their false depenedence on people for guidance instead of dependence on only Allah for guidance, especially when their claims are not accepted by the heart because the heart has this thing that when it hears something that is unjust it does not want it, but when people chose to not even consider their own heart or their heart being so hard that they can not even feel when something is unjust and actually take up arms to kill and fight those who do not have a wish for their ideology, this is when someone has become unjust, and they will either leave this ideology later on when the pain of the heart becomes too unbarable or their hearts become harder then stones and keep on the same course untill they are ruined. Because killing those who do not fight you for your faith or make you leave your homes is unjust and in no way the way of our prophet who came with the truth. And you can not blame those who deffend themselves against violent ideologies. Because then you would blame the prophet and the faithful who defended themselves against the violent ideology of the polytheists of Arabia.  True Guidance is the guidance of Allah, even the messenger can not guide whom he wishes. But Allah guides whom He wishes.

"Neither is it true that they have no demands. They do. It is just that no sane person would negotiate on them. " !!!!

"They demand the elimination of Israel; the withdrawal of all westerners from Muslim countries, irrespective of the wishes of people and Government; the establishment of effectively Taleban states and Sharia law in the Arab world en route to one Caliphate of all Muslim nations."

All Muslims wish to see the liberation of ALL of Palestine (not just the west Bank & Gaza), see the expulsion of the western occupation, the establishment of Sharia law and a single Islamic leadership (Caliphate) for all the Muslims. Palestine is not the name of that area, the Filisteens where the name Palestine comes from got fought against and killed by the Messenger of Allah Mosaa(Moses the peace is upon him) and the faithful with him. So do you wish the judgement of ignorance? humku al jaahiliyaa is not what the true faithful wish, so for a faithful person to even say that the area is called Palestine is unjust, because then he grabs back to the judgement of the time of ignorance, the time when the Filistinieen ruled that area, and they were polytheists and got defeated by the faithful bani israeel and it became The Holy Land.

Thanks to thse kind of comments, it helps Muslims to see even clearer than before that this indeed is a war to suppress Islam and confine it to the worships in a new religion called "Moderate Islam". You must agree that you can practise your faith and call to it in the whole western world, and they do not have to accept it and they can argue back and say whatever they want to, but when they start killing the faithful because of them practising their faith or calling to it, this is when the true faithful will take up the sword against them again, because the prophet and the faithful did not take up a sword against those who chose to be their enemies untill they took up the sword first to kill the faithful because of their faith. So if you wish to follow the sunnah there it is, in the koran. And since the western world implemented religious freedom the true faithful stopped fighting them. And it is the faith blood and sweat of the prophet, the faithful and the faithful after them who worked for this and achieved it. Because in my view religious freedom came to be because of the threat posed by those true muslims who fought against those who killed and opressed the faithful for their faith, so instead of fighting against those faithful and being over run eventually as was the case with all the other nations who chose to kill the faithful and forbid their faith, they chose to implement religious freedom and with this the need to fight them came to an end.  But when some groups think they have enough following and enough resources to go out and kill those who oppose their barabaric and cruel ideologies, this is when they meet the steel and fire of the armies. Why is it that when these mostly arab types read the koran and read "to warn from a fierce violence from His side" in surat 18 the cave they apply it to the rest of the world who can not even read arabic instead of their ownselves? don't they see they speak arabic and it came in their language? so to who is the warning really directed? the truth is they do not listen to the words of Allah and reflect upon them but rather listen to the explanations and reflections of leaders who imposed themselves on them to be followed and whom they chose to follow. The warning for a fierce violence from His side stands because in my view arabs have no excuse, the book came in their language, it has not been altered like the bible and torah. And their choice to disregard the speech of Allah for the speech of men is a very bad choice, and they work their own ruin if they choose the path of violence for the sake of the speech of men they idolize. So the advices are fear Allah alone so that you may be shown mercy. And have faith in Allah and disbelieve in the taghoot(one who forces himself upon people to be worshipped besides Allah, one who puts baseless fears into people as to gain power over them)



Community - can you elaborate on the difference between fighting an ideology that advocates killing innocents, including children and what Tony Blair was addressing?

Why are you so defensive on this point?

If you cannot tolerate what Blair says as a relative secularist (honestly, I don't know about his beliefs in God) then how are we to understand what Muslims reasonable approach to terrorism is?

Please elaborate...thanks..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Community Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2005 at 1:03am

hmmmm....

you know what makes me feel "awkward" sometimes? it is the thought of me trying to teach and show others while infact the whole world already knows except me, and i tell others while infact i am telling it to my ownself. It's a feeling that the world has moved on "and i am trying to catch up". But on the other hand i do not know what people know and what not, so i guess i will keep on explaining what i think is true and thus important in the hope that i am doing something pleasing to Allah, i am sure there must be people on the same level as me and who do understand what i understand. The question now for me is, can one make others understand something? or is silence enough and everyone who needs to understand something will understand it on his own? I wrote this the otherday on a piece of paper:"understanding is a blank page."



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jibreel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2005 at 6:56am
Originally posted by b95000 b95000 wrote:



Originally posted by jibreel jibreel wrote:

And lets not even start body counts teh U.S. killed while
claiming Sadam
had the WMOD.


What?� You're just presuming for us all?� Don't think so..


explain why you argue about hate when it is hate, why would you support a
war, are you a hater?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ummsalam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2005 at 3:07pm

to be honest, the war going on and all these threats are wars on Islam... Have you not picked up a newspaper today, and found that Islam and Muslims are being attacked, if not actively by people, than they are passively tolerating them?

Blair clearly stated:

"We will consult on a new power to order closure of a place of worship which is used as a center for fomenting extremism and will consult with Muslim leaders in respect of those clerics who are not British citizens, to draw up a list of those not suitable to preach who will be excluded from Britain,"

This doesn't mean that they will seriously dig up terrorists, because as far as the american and british governments are concerned every mosque is a threat and every muslim is a threat. Supposedly at my local mosque there is an FBI agent following around the youth to make sure they aren't talking about anything threatening. this is problematic. Not only that, but they are instigating people of our community against one another. A group of people from my mosque went to the local newspaper, and called the Islamic center's board, fundamentalists, extremists, and possibly a threat.

Tell me this is not an attack on Islam and Muslims, and I'll tell you put your self in my position, where i have to take the subway system in boston, and trains that i've taken have stopped for emergency and "random" searches... when i start getting sniffed by a dog, and i know i don't have anything on me, because im a 17 year old kid who's trying to get done with summer classes.

This is a war on Islam and Muslims.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Community Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2005 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by ummsalam ummsalam wrote:

to be honest, the war going on and all these threats are wars on Islam... Have you not picked up a newspaper today, and found that Islam and Muslims are being attacked, if not actively by people, than they are passively tolerating them? What would you suggest? that the government puts a halt to the freedom of speech? to forbid news papers and people from expressing their opinion? you must realize that this is very problematic, The president said right after 11th september that this war is not against islam but against terrorists, ofcourse there are people who use this whole terrorism thing as a way to lash out against islam and muslims, and some feel threatened by what they preceive as being islam through the news papers and media, and muslims feel threatened by what they hear of opinions in certain news and media outlets but the fact is the government can not forbid news papers and the media from expressing their views, because they have the freedom of expression. This does not mean it is the view held by the government, atleast not the whole government sees islam as a threat. Atleast The president made it clear that he does not see islam or law abiding muslims as a threat, but it is unfortunate that alot of muslims do not wish to help the government in combatting terrorism, it can be viewed as alot of muslims atleast condoning terrorism or do not care if terrorists do their thing, so the question we should ask is why does it appear that alot of muslims have no interest in protecting their country against terrorists? is it because they sympathize with them in one way or another? or is it because they do not feel this is their country? or maybe both? or is this notion completely wrong and is the muslim community in the US very much busy in helping the government combat terrorists?

Blair clearly stated:

"We will consult on a new power to order closure of a place of worship which is used as a center for fomenting extremism and will consult with Muslim leaders in respect of those clerics who are not British citizens, to draw up a list of those not suitable to preach who will be excluded from Britain,"

This doesn't mean that they will seriously dig up terrorists, because as far as the american and british governments are concerned every mosque is a threat and every muslim is a threat. This is your opinion, you can not know this except by way of guessing and sometimes guesses are wrong, a government is not just made up out of one person, it is made up out of different people and "i guess" they would not hold opinions that would go against their countries constitutional rights like freedom of religion a very highly regarded right in the US and Brittain  , Supposedly at my local mosque there is an FBI agent following around the youth to make sure they aren't talking about anything threatening. this is problematic. Why is this problematic? can't you understand the job of the FBI is also homeland security and that when some terrorist attack happens everybody will be looking at them and asking them "why could'nt you stop it?" so they do whatever they can to make sure no terrorist attacks take place, it is their job, they do it for security of the people of the US(no matter what race or religion they are) and ofcourse US interests, And honestly if a terrorist attack happens the muslims would be blamed again atleast by a part of the society so is'nt it more important to make sure no terrorist attack happens? atleast for the sake of safety for parts of the muslim community if you do not care for others except muslims which will be fulnerable to attacks by angry people after a terrorist attack.Not only that, but they are instigating people of our community against one another. i eould like to hear this, How are they doing that? A group of people from my mosque went to the local newspaper, and called the Islamic center's board, fundamentalists, extremists, and possibly a threat. Is it true? on what basis did they say that? is it because the board's opinion and methodology condones terrorism in anyway or anywhere in the world? or condones the enemosity towards the US and it's people?

Tell me this is not an attack on Islam and Muslims, and I'll tell you put your self in my position, where i have to take the subway system in boston, and trains that i've taken have stopped for emergency and "random" searches... when i start getting sniffed by a dog, and i know i don't have anything on me, because im a 17 year old kid who's trying to get done with summer classes. Ok but put yourself in their shoes also, being threatened by terrorists who claim islam and you not understand their fears and precautions, maybe you even become agrivated when all they try to do is make sure there are no bombs on the subway or on the trains. Now how would that be viewed you think? you being agrivated instead of understanding of their fears and them taking precautions? i understand if you think "i do not agree with terrorists or their actions, so why should i act differently?", but if you show anger or irritation when they try to secure a train or metro instead of understanding this will only make them ???? of your reaction, and this will make them act differently towards you and this on it's turn will make you more agrivated. Betterment of the situation starts with understanding and losing anger, it is a hard time for some muslims, but you should remember that we are the community of sabr, patience, and that we should keep our selves clear from fearing anyone or anything except Allah, because fearing anything or anyone except Allah makes people unjust, may Allah pour down patience upon us.

This is a war on Islam and Muslims. Maybe by some who use this as an excuse to lash out against islam, but certainly not all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Community Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2005 at 10:18pm

Maybe it sounds hard for you to be understanding of them when you read the news they read and watch the news they watch, it probebly makes you think "see how they think and talk, they truely dislike us" and it probebly makes you react a certain way towards them, but see this is what is causing the problem i think, them reacting to what they see and read about muslims and which causes them to be suspicious and fearful, and you reacting to what your read and see with suspicion and maybe even fear turned into irritation and anger towards them, and this reaction of yours adds only to their fears, because they see someone who is suspicious of them and maybe even angry at them and this is exactly what they are fearful for "muslims are an angry bunch who dislike western people and society". It would help you alot i think if you leave those news papers and news programs and concentrate on being a good muslima, you do not need to hear or read the news for this all you need is the fear of Allah and the hope for His mercy. Because reading the news papers and watching the news will only cause you to know the same as what they are fed, and this will cause you to react to their perceptions of you. This is not the way it should be, instead of muslims reacting to the "news" and with this as what they preceive as being the societies opinion of them, muslims should try to be good people of faith, and make the world react to them instead of the otherway around. I mean seriously why do you read news papers and watch the news anyway? is it because you want to know what is going on so that you can take precautions against any negative change of event? Is it because you wish to know what happens in the world? if the answers are yes then i tell you, what is going on in the world is the will of Allah, and all power belongs to Allah, do not be fooled by what they preceive as news or by what they try to feed the people because that is an illusion. And if something is really important for you to know about the world, Allah is surely the protector of the faithful so He will cause you to know it.

If you feel threatened know that all power belongs to Allah, the messenger and the faithful. Nothing can happen to you except if Allah wishes it. So fear Him alone and be cautious of Him and hope for His mercy and turn away from that which is more harmful then good. You have no protector,guardian or disposer of affairs(waliy) except Allah. 

He is The Best Planner, those who make plans against the faithful do not realize that their plans are seen and fully understood by Allah. His plan takes their plans into full account and they can not do anything except by His permission, Allah says in the koran that those ungrateful(kuffar in arabic) only have pride, pride is to think something is your own doing or work and not remembering that nothing happens except by His permission. They think their plans are theirs but His plan is being executed and those who come to realize this for them the door to repentance is open as it is for everyone, but those who stay proud and ungrateful will become regretful at all the wealth they spent against the faithful and even cause their own ruin if they persist in their anger, so do not worry about their plans, but worry about your faith, Allah is the protector of the faithful, so be a good person of faith. 

O you faithful, be truthful in your engagements towards Allah, fear Him alone so that you may be dealt with mercy. Be Just and stand as witnesses to Allah for justice, and let not ill will at any make you decline from being just, be just this is nearer to the fear of Allah, and fear Allah, He is well aquainted with that which you do.

One of the plans of some enemies of the faithful, is to make them accept falsehoods, and make them feel threatened so that they make some move against people they preceive as their enemy so that they can destroy them. But this will not work for the true faithful. Their protector is Allah, and the true faithful do not accept falsehoods and do not make agressive moves simply because of words, and a true faithful person does not fall for illusions. The only way to get a true faithful to take up a sword is when he is threatened with war only because he practices and preaches his faith. This is not the case now, so who is causing the problems? extreemists-terrorists these have accepted falsehood and feel threatened and they should feel threatened, because the threat is not really from people, but from Allah who sent them the book in their own language, a book unaltered and preserved but instead of reading it and being satisfied with the words of Allah and being guided by Him, they rather listen to self imposed leaders who preach anger against those who do not even know arabic. So the threat of Allah of a fierce violence from His side, they should apply to their ownselves, they who know the language in which the book came in the first place. So here again, the plan of Allah takes in full consideration the plans of the enemies of the faithful, Allah asks in the koran:"will then except the unjust people be destroyed?" wa alhamduli Allahi rabbi al 'alameen. and all praise is to Allah Lord of the worlds.



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