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calvindamenace 
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 Posted: 03 March 2010 at 9:01pm |
 seekshidayath wrote:
7. Now, what if there is a dispute between scholars who has sound knowledge, wisdom and sincerity? Well, for a common person, he has to be sincere in obeying Allah and His messenger and should do his best to get most right opinion. If in this process he err or the scholars to whom he follows make mistake, the person cannot be responsible.
We've talked about it  I go to see a scholar if I am troubled with something myself and can't resolve it on my own. How can I figure which one of these scholars is right since they are "learned people" not me. If a scholar makes something that is sin acceptable, then it's his sin, not mine. Beautiful.
8. Proof! well it is simply established by the last�verse in Surah Baqarah "On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."
I stumbled upon an article not so long ago... So why are there people that commit suicide? That would be only a way out if a person's sure there's no way he/she could continue with their problems, right? I mean the reason you could take your own life if you do believe you can't bear it no more, right?
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Edited by calvindamenace - 03 March 2010 at 9:07pm
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calvindamenace
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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 8:28pm |
seekshadiyath wrote:
Originally posted by seekshidayath
Its not idolising at all. To celebrate birthday - is it idolising ? What if, christians celebrate b'day of christ ? How do you connect them and state celebratin the b'day of Prophet Muhammad {sallal lahu alayhi wasallam} is wrong ? When you wish my answers from Qur'an, i also expect you to support your answer by Qur'an and sunnah . Also, why is it taking him as God when we just celebrate b'day?
I found this link http://muttaqun.com/mawlid.html, you have to understand I wasn't muslim for long and I do not know quran well, and yet you want me to support it with verses from it. Well I can always copy and paste, so here it is:
"The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in All�h, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say, "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)." 2:285,
"Say (O Muslims), "We believe in All�h and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibr�him (Abraham), Ism�'il (Ishmael), Ish�que (Isaac), Ya'q�b (Jacob), and to Al-Asb�t [the twelve sons of Ya'q�b (Jacob), and that which has been given to M�sa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Isl�m)." 2:136,
"And those who believe in All�h and His Messengers and make no distinction between any of them (Messengers), We shall give them their rewards, and All�h is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful".4:152,
"Say (O Muhammad ): "We believe in All�h and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibr�him (Abraham), Ism�'il (Ishmael), Ish�que (Isaac), Ya'q�b (Jacob) and Al-Asb�t [the twelve sons of Ya'q�b (Jacob)> and what was given to M�sa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (All�h) we have submitted (in Isl�m)."3:84
So, now then, we say to those who insist on celebrating the Prophet's birthday.... with clear proof not to distinguish between the Prophets... why don't you celebrate ALL the Prophet's birthday's? Like Jesus'? You can do it on Dec. 25th or pick another date if you want. Oh, I see, you know better than to celebrate Jesus' birthday?? Maybe the reasons you shouldn't be celebrating Jesus' birthday, are the same reasons not to celebrate Muhammad's birthday?" Nicely said.
We offer out put him in every prayer {in your words}, as Allah stated us in Qur'an to send blessings over him, as Allah and angels also send him. Is it taking Prophet as God?
As far as I know it was Muhammad who thought muslims how to pray, well do you say that's what he thought them to say? Or did he himself said this "I testify that there is no god but Allah and I testify that Mohammed (in his case it would be "I am your slave and messenger") is His slave and messenger. O Allah, bless Mohammed (in his case "bless me and my family") and his family as You blessed Ibrahim and his family. Yes, no? And how come we don’t include any other prophet in our prayers?
So, its time to move your thread at non-muslims section. Now you don't even take Qur'an as word of God. When you have no answers you simply state its outdated. Whats the use of these discussions?
Sure, you can move this thread anywhere you want, I don't really mind. As of outdated, it does seem like it, here's sample - verses of slavery, and as far as I know it's abolished in every western society (yeah, for some reason muslims try so hard to come to any cuffir european country from islamic countries where living should be super great since they enforce islamic law) unlike in some muslim societies, where it still flourishes. Here: "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"(33:50), is this Ok with you? I mean let's say that it's not outdated, that means that slavery is ok, right? In fact any muslim who takes this verse as it is could go and get a slave?
These kind of derivings come, when we try to understand by our own. So try to reach men of understanding, sincerly.
You still insist I need someone to tell me how I should understand a verse in Quran? Why is it stated then that "This (the Qur’an) is clear insight for humanity and guidance and mercy for people with certainty 45:20 or "And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?54:17. Are you trying to say it's written in code and we need someone to decode it? Why would God do that if He wants to guide us?
You just share that hadith here, not the number. By the way what is this hanbel? I look into those sayings of Prophets which are authentic, i.e have right chain of narrators.
Sure. Enen some extra ones. Here you go:
"If a monkey, a black dog or a woman passes in front of a praying person, his prayer is nullified." (Bukhary 8/102; Hanbel 4/86). Note, if a pig passes - it's ok
"Bad luck is in the woman, the horse, and the home" (Bukhary 76/53).
"The prophet gave permission to kill children and women in war" (Bukhari, Jihad/146; Ebu Davud 113).
"Woman was created from rib so she will always remain crooked. Leave her crooked as she is." (Beginning of creation, Bukhari, vol.2, p.251).
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind." Sahih Bukhari 3:48:826
“So ask of those who know the Scripture, if you know not”
Verse 2:2
Yusuf Ali: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God
Zohurul Hoque: This Scripture, no doubt in it, is a Guidance for the reverent:
T. J. Irving: This is the Book which contains no doubt; it means guidance for those who do their duty
T.U. Hilali-M. Khan: This is the Book (the Qur'�n), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaq�n [the pious and righteous persons who fear All�h much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love All�h much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)>.
M. Pickthall: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
M.H. Shakir: This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
Guess there were people that couldn't read or didn't know quran. That simple. Scripture meaning quran.
This is what happens when you don't study from those who possess more knowledge than yours.Hope atleast now you realise the need of studying from those who spent there lives in gaining knowledge sincerly. Shall share a link insha Allah.
Please do.
Don't bring up new topics inless old ones are solved. Else we may get messed up.
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P.S. I thought I would share this too:
"I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people" (Bukhary 97/36).
"Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah" (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).
"The parchment that the verse about stoning to death for adultery was written on was eaten and abrogated by a goat." (Ibni Majah 36/1944; Ibni Hanbal 3/61; 5/131,132,183; 6/269).
"The punishment for cutting the fingers of a woman is to pay her: 10 camels for one finger, 20 camels for two fingers, 30 camels for three fingers, and 20 (twenty) camels for four fingers" (Hanbel 2/182; Muvatta 43/11).
"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).
"The prophet ordered Amr Ibn As to write everything that he speaks" (Hanbel 2/162).
"Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet" (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22).
"The Prophet never urinated in standing position" (Hanbel 6/136,192,213).
"The prophet urinated in standing position" (Bukhary 4/60,62).
"Do not eat and drink with your left hand, because Satan eats and drinks with the left hand" (Hanbel 2/8,33). How convenient for lefties , but what's the fuss, they only make up 15-25% of the population.
And there are many more..
P.P.S. All written above wasn't approved for some reason. Is there some kind of a censorship on this board and you only approve of what you find suitable for yourself?
haris30432 wrote:
Peace,
�
Its true that i have a different understanding of Islam than many in this forum. However i do take offence in any form or level of mockery of GOD,�the Quran and his messengers.There fore,dear brother, i would like to request you to double check some of your posts as it slightly has a tone of mockery.
If you feel like that, I am sorry, cause I am not making fun of any religion. I find some stuff silly, hard to understand, sure, but not in any way I am trying to mock the religion. Yeah, in some matters I could be slightly sarcastic towards a person..
Plus if you do not consider yourself a muslim yet,i would request you to kindly be more respectful in ur questions.And even though i disagree with Seekshidayath on many issues,i agree with her opinion that this discussion may be better done in the non-muslims section.
I don't consider myself muslim no more. I mean I believe there's One God, I try to avoid pork, yeah. But I am not sure where I stand on islam at the moment, (LOTS of QUESTIONS, trust me), so I don't mind moving this thread.
Peace :) |
Edited by calvindamenace - 05 March 2010 at 6:47am
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haris30432
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Joined: 23 January 2010
Location: India
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Points: 145
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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 5:25am |
Peace,
Its true that i have a different understanding of Islam than many in this forum.However i do take offence in any form or level of mockery of GOD, the Quran and his messengers.There fore,dear brother, i would like to request you to double check some of your posts as it slightly has a tone of mockery.Plus if you do not consider yourself a muslim yet,i would request you to kindly be more respectful in ur questions.And even though i disagree with Seekshidayath on many issues,i agree with her opinion that this discussion may be better done in the non-muslims section.
Peace :)
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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!
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seekshidayath
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Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357
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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 2:28am |
`Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.(3:79) Well, there it says it all, don't you think? In fact, isn't that what christians do - celebrate the birth of Christ? I mean it does seem like muslims bring Muhammad to such level where he becomes... almost as God, I mean for God�s sake you even put him in an every prayer!! (And as far as my understanding goes a prayer should be for a glorifying God, right?)
Its not idolising at all. To celebrate birthday - is it idolising ? What if, christians celebrate b'day of christ ? How do you connect them and state celebratin the b'day of Prophet Muhammad {sallal lahu alayhi wasallam} is wrong ? When you wish my answers from Qur'an, i also expect you to support your answer by Qur'an and sunnah . Also, why is it taking him as God when we just celebrate b'day ?
I mean for God�s sake you even put him in an every prayer!! (And as far as my understanding goes a prayer should be for a glorifying God, right?)
We offer out put him in every prayer {in your words}, as Allah stated us in Qur'an to send blessings over him, as Allah and angels also send him. Is it taking Prophet as God ?
Yeah, I wasn't a muslim for long, and yet even to me it seems like so much stuff is outdated.
So, its time to move your thread at non-muslims section. Now you don't even take Qur'an as word of God. When you have no answers you simply state its outdated. Whats the use of these discussions ?
Like this verse. Honestly, I have no answer to this question. I�ll research more on this one. Thanks.
By the way, it says "refer it to Allah and His Messenger", not to scholars or �learned persons", right?
I shall quote you the ayah, wherein its said that we can reach out those who possess more knowledge.. By the way, you atleast prove to me, as how shud one refer to messenger ? - I shall give you the answer - simply by following his sayings, which are preserved.
Are trying to say that by communicating through scholar we somehow communicate with God and Messenger?
These kind of derivings come, when we try to understand by our own. So try to reach men of understanding, sincerly. 
Or by reading hadith you do? Do you tolerate all hadith or not? If yes, I can point you to hadith where women are compared to dogs or monkeys (Bukhari 8/102 and Hanbel 4/86)... Is that OK with you? Or you choose which ones to accept and which not to?
You just share that hadith here, not the number. By the way what is this hanbel ? I look into those sayings of Prophets which are authentic, i.e have right chain of narrators.
Bring up the verse please
�So ask of those who know the Scripture, if you know not� [al-Nahl 16:43].
How can I trust a woman if... "Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective".(Bukhary
This is what happens when you don't study from those who possess more knowledge than yours.Hope atleast now you realise the need of studying from those who spent there lives in gaining knowledge sincerly. Shall share a link insha Allah.
Don't bring up new topics inless old ones are solved. Else we may get messed up
Edited by seekshidayath - 03 March 2010 at 2:29am
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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seekshidayath
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Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
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Points: 3357
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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 1:39am |
If you can't have a 100% assurance on what is sin and what is not with a book of God!! and have to guide yourself by guessing or relying on someone's opinion, then what kind of a "clear path" are we talking about here? And may I ask you, who told you that you are not going to be questioned by Allah for taking up rulings made up by scholars? How do you know it wouldn't be a sin? Show me such thing in Quran. One of your quotes was not answered. I asked it to a person {Br. Abuzaid[, whom i trust for his knowledge in deen. This was his answer, which shall insha Allah, satisfy you.
Islam is clear path in the sense that it tell us what should be our faith clearly without leavin any ambiguity with regard to Allah and His attribute.
Now, fact that there are some disputed issues in Islam does not make it ambiguous religion. Dispute arises just because Allah himself have not made something clear to us and He being all knowing did it deliberately. Intelligence is one of the great gift of Allah SW that He had given us and this is to be used in the matter of Deen as well as in acquiring worldly means. Islam encourages us to think and ponder upon issues instead of giving us complete and rigid solutions. Morever, when it comes to issues of jurisprudence, many of the issues are related to context and condition in which we live. So, giving a rigid solution would make more problems and sometime it would become impossible to follow the ruling in varying contexts.
So, it is flexiblity and ease that Allah SW has given us considering human weakness and considering the fact that Islam should be practiced in varying environment till doomsday.
Now, regarding the question that what is proof that if we follow a genuine scholar in disputed issue we will not be questioned.
This is how it goes.
1. It has be clear from Quran that we must obey Allah and His messenger.
2. But, obeying Allah and His messenger is subjected to knowledge a person acquire
3. Everybody cannot get same degree of knowledge because of the varying context in which they are born in and because of various degree of intelligence, memory and attitudes humans have.
4. Some of the people who specialized in Islamic knowledge by devoting their full time of Islam knowledge must be considered more knowledgeable subjected to their degree of intelligence and sincerity.
5. Thus practically it is not possible for a common person to acquire enough knowledge to form an opinion in disputed issues.
6. I am not willing to devote my time to prove a common person wrong if he insists that he has enough knowledge on a subject and can form an opinion based on his own knowledge and intelligence. He will be judged by Allah SW. If he is right he may get reward for it and if he wrong he is answerable to Allah SW. This is he who has to justify his act on the day of judgement.
7. Now, what if there is a dispute between scholars who has sound knowledge, wisdom and sincerity? Well, for a common person, he has to be sincere in obeying Allah and His messenger and should do his best to get most right opinion. If in this process he err or the scholars to whom he follows make mistake, the person cannot be responsible.
8. Proof! well it is simply established by the last verse in Surah Baqarah
On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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calvindamenace
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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 12:09am |
seekshidayath wrote:
Okay, can you take out from Qur'an, if we are to celebrate birthday of Prophet or not ?
Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.(3:79) Well, there it says it all, don't you think? In fact, isn't that what christians do - celebrate the birth of Christ? I mean it does seem like muslims bring Muhammad to such level where he becomes... almost as God, I mean for God’s sake you even put him in an every prayer!! (And as far as my understanding goes a prayer should be for a glorifying God, right?)
You did not write to me about this ayah ? - "“(And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination”[al-Nisa’ 4:59] " How will you interpret this ? How will you refer back to messenger ? Qur'an is for all the people even after Prophet. How shud i refer to the messenger ?
Yeah, I wasn't a muslim for long, and yet even to me it seems like so much stuff is outdated. Like this verse. Honestly, I have no answer to this question. I’ll research more on this one. Thanks. By the way, it says "refer it to Allah and His Messenger", not to scholars or “learned persons", right? Are trying to say that by communicating through scholar we somehow communicate with God and Messenger? Or by reading hadith you do? Do you tolerate all hadith or not? If yes, I can point you to hadith where women are compared to dogs or monkeys (Bukhari 8/102 and Hanbel 4/86)... Is that OK with you? Or you choose which ones to accept and which not to?
You must have read that ayah many times in which Allah swt commands us to ask, those who� know. What do you mean by this ? Can u kindly interpret it ?
Bring up the verse please.
You are not taking anything from my post. Not a point do you agree, Its just because you don't trust me. Neither am going to learn anything from you, since i don't trust you {to be plain and frank]
How can I trust a woman if... "Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective".(Bukhary).
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P.S. Please, do not compare me to haris, since he still considers himself a muslim, even if it's a muslim that abolished hadith (Quran only muslim ??) and I on the other side, don't consider myself muslim no more. I am not pro or against hadith, nor I am trying to prove anyone wrong, it's a simple conversation (that sometimes get's to stage of arguing) on things that I find difficult, insulting or simple silly in islam. I am just looking for rationality (that I was told existed in this religion), asking questions and welcoming answers. Sometimes I get anxious and not so nice, yeah I know, but that's how I am. Sorry if I offended anyone by stating my thought out in open.
Edited by calvindamenace - 03 March 2010 at 1:03am
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seekshidayath
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Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
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Points: 3357
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 6:45pm |
Our discussions are taking us nowhere, calvin. Anyways, i wish you to answer my questions before we move forward. Those two from my above post, and the other which i had been posting and reposting, as how shall we take Prophet Muhammad {sallal lahu alayhi wasallam} as our Ideal, when Qur'an commands us such.
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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seekshidayath
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Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 6:36pm |
My apologies Calvin for not replying you. Thanx for bringing up the post.
Well, there's no direct command not to eat a dog but there's one for a pig, right? I doubt that it was forgotten to mention such for a dog.  And then hadith all of a sudden make dogs.. Not clean? Show me in Quran where it says that they are not clean animals. Thank you
Calvin, there are many things in the Qur'an which are not direct. Anyways, when we find no direct command from Qur'an, we lookinto hadith. Hadith {which are the the desirous sayings of Prophet, but are from Allah },. If a hadith forbades us, we stop it and when it is silent too, we can take either.
And how many are there such examples? How many times are you going to rely on someone instead on relying on God's word?
Okay, can you take out from Qur'an, if we are to celebrate birthday of Prophet or not ?
One's going to see a scholar cause his knowledge on some matters is not sufficient, right? So how can he compare and decide what's more correct?  It just doesn't make sence.
We don't blindly follow scholars Calvin. By the way these scholars give us rulings from Qur'an and sunnah
You did not write to me about this ayah ? - "�(And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination�[al-Nisa� 4:59] " How will you interpret this ? How will you refer back to messenger ? Qur'an is for all the people even after Prophet. How shud i refer to the messenger ?
How do you decide who's more trustworthy in an age of information? This is not old days where you had to travel to a nearby village to see an old guy who'd explain to you his views... Can you even imagine how many different points of views you can read online? You just might spent an eternity reading
Simple example, check your selves. You are not taking anything from my post. Not a point do you agree, Its just because you don't trust me. Neither am going to learn anything from you, since i don't trust you {to be plain and frank]
Remember Calvin, we daily make duas and even while in salah at surah Fatiha, we pray Allah to guide us to the rightpath. Believe me, when we sincerely make prayers, Allah swt surely guides us. He makes true sources reach us. We do trust him and take. Mind it, that we reach out scholars, only when few issues are not apparent to us.
You must have read that ayah many times in which Allah swt commands us to ask, those who know. What do you mean by this ? Can u kindly interpret it ?
Again, who's to say which scholar is right on a matter that botheres me?
It's answered above
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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