IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?

Shibboleth wrote: It has been said by Muslims "The corruption / alteration to these books occured over long periods of time and still occur in our modern times , a look on ' a new version ' of the bible would demonstrate this" When did the corruptions begin? Before?

Before and After

Shibboleth wrote: Closely read what your Quran says: 2: 136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."  39: 1        The revelation of this Book is from Allah the Exalted in Power Full of Wisdom. 2        Verily it is We Who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth: so serve Allah offering Him sincere devotion.

Shibboleth wrote: If the Quran is CONFIRMATION of all Previous Revelations, then these Revelations could not have been corrupted prior to or in the days of Muhammad otherwise this verse - like many others like it - would make no sense and would render it blasphemous.

This is a very wrong analogy , which is seems you keep on building upon it's logic

Muslims believe in these Prophets , that they existed , that they were Prophets sent by God , and they were sent with these revelations
This is no sense implies that these revelations were not corrupted

If I trust that someone gave you a letter , this by no means implies that I believe this letter wouldn't have been altered by someone else later on

Shibboleth wrote: Perhaps Meditations and Ali can together come up with the answer to this question - Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these uncorrupted manuscripts and save them as proof?

For various reasons some of it
1: There's no point in doing this , the existence of the various 'versions' of the old and new testament is enough proof
2: Even if these manuscripts existed and were available to them , it would be of no use , since the revelation of the Qur'an becomes the new law for believers

Shibboleth wrote: When did the corruptions begin?

Corruption definetly began before the times of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) The question is , when was the bible/OT written ? by Whom ?

Also , in our modern days, knowing when it began is of little value , the fact that today , year 2009 , there're so many 'versions' , that are
1: different from each other
2: contradicts each other at times
3: have no direct link to Jesus or Moses ( PBUT )

Makes us 100% certain that what we have now , couldn't be 100% what was revealed to Jesus or Moses ( PBUT )

Is this enough answer ?

Regards


Edited by Meditations - 10 September 2009 at 3:21pm

Shibboleth wrote: That's interesting Ali, all these links, quotes and statements but no one can find a copy, not ONE copy or ancient manuscript before it so-called "corruption"

 

 These kinds of questions:(Who corrupted the Bible?When?Where?Before or after Muhammad?Why was it done? How come no one noticed it?) are already answered here by brother Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi

 

 

 

Med says� And why would Muslims want to search these manuscripts (If existed )
For starters truth vs. false and to prove your point that the billions and billions of Bibles on the face of this earth are corrupt. It�s been tried but NO ONE can prove ancient manuscrpts, they always come up empty handed.

 

God preserved his word, that�s why it still exists today!

 

يَبِسَ الْعُشْبُ، ذَبُلَ الزَّهْرُ. وَأَمَّا كَلِمَةُ إِلهِنَا فَتَثْبُتُ إِلَى الأَبَدِ�.

 

Isaiah 40:6-8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

 

So, instead everyone shows links and statements on how corrupt the Bible is, SORRY! That�s no more evidence then me showing you links, websites, and statements of apostate Muslims, Muslim scholars on how contradictory and corrupt the Quran is. That�s not proof nor is it science, that is plan �hear say�

 

If you want to prove how corrupt the Bible is even though it PREDATES the Quran by decades and COPIES of it had been found in caves (Dead Sea Scrolls) in the mid 1900�s, but it manuscripts dates back all the way to the 3^rd century BCE, and the writings and messages are basically STILL the same be my guess.

 

Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New Testament texts.

     a.   Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts

     b.   Amr al-Ghakhiz (869)     "    "    "    "

     c.   BUKHARI (810-870)       "    "    "    "

          (he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)

     d.   Al-Mas'udi (956)         "    "    "    "

     e.   Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina  (1037)"   "    "

     f.   AL-GHAZZALI (1111)       "    "    "    "

          (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings)

     g.   Ibn-Khaldun (1406)       "    "    "    "    "    " he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic teachers.)

     h.   Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."

     i.   Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil; but according to eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation."   

(If such was the case their would have been an uncorrupted AND corrupted  text / version / and or manuscript somewhere around) 

WHY do you believe Ibn-Khazem rather then the witness of the Quran, the word of Muhammad, and these 10 great Muslim scholars who ALL believed the Bible texts to be truthful

Where are the manuscripts that have NOT been corrupted people? YOU keep saying they were corrupted BEFORE and AFTER the prophet, I keep asking show me copies of it, IF there are any.  

Authentic and Science: not false; genuine; real: an authentic antique, factual.

**Manuscripts of the Bible (Holy Writings) that dates back to the 2nd and 3 rd century that has the same message as we have today, 2009 but has not been proven otherwise.

Myth andTheory: a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation.

**The Bible is corrupted, been tampered with but no ancient proof or manuscript or dates to prove it. No explanation as to why all the billions of Bibles circulated in the earth has the SAME message but unable to find ANY ancient books that�s says differently.  

 

 

 

Edited by Shibboleth - 11 September 2009 at 3:07pm

Homework???????????????????????????????????????
Sorry, Jesus confirmed the Torah, the Psalms and the Injil waaaaay before you and I or the prophet were ever born. Schools out! All my posts attests to what Jesus said regarding people who would come after him when he died 2000 yrs ago, the uncensored and uncorrupted version. I even posted the Aramaic version to prove every point regarding  the 'messenger'

But, show me what scriptures was corrupted in the Bible regarding Muhammad, that's the real issue. As Muslims say the Quran mentions Jesus by NAME several time, it had to. But No where will you or anyone find Muhammad's name in the Bible.

Do you know Umayya bin abi al-Salt, a maternal cousin of Mohammed, claimed to be a prophet? A lie.

Do you know The Midianites never even heard of Mecca and Moses never mentioned it? Truth

BTW, the Bible has always appeared to be corrupted to non-believers and those who deny the Christ, that's nothing new.