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martha View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

He always knew how wicked the Jews and Gentiles (all humans) would be. Despite that, He decided to give them a means of salvation and the gift of eternal life. And He did it...even though humans were still exercising their free will.

Interestingly, so what is Jesus's choice or God's? Who is in control?  If he knew he Would 'die' and would be 'resurrected' then what is the big deal? If he knew the 'ultimate' result?

If Jesus IS God, then how was he 'sent' by God?

If Jesus is in heaven as part of the trinity,  what exactly did hie 'give up?

Its like if I give money and I know that money will allow me to get more money, what did I really loose or risk?

 
Salaams Hayfa...as you've probably guessed my idea of God and Jesus is different to most Christian religions. If you look at the link above it might show you why
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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islamispeace View Drop Down
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Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

islamispeace..

I hope the following link is helpful and interesting.
 
It does explain quite a lot and this was my religion before I became muslim. You are right that Catholics and Protestants have completely different views to this.
 
As a child I found GOd rather confusing having been brought up in the Church of England(protestant) THe teachings did not make sense at all...all the stuff that God and Jesus were the same for example. Logically it was not possible. In my early 20's I found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to dispel all those confusing issues of mine ( I know this Church gets a lot of bad press too, but actually there are several sects that don't conform to the original Latter Day Saint organisation)
 
Anyways, read the link, perhaps it will give you another perspective.



As-salaam alaikum sister Martha,

Thank you for the link.  It clarifies certain aspects of Mormon theology, but it also got me asking more questions.  For instance, the "war in heaven".  Was Lucifer so st**id as to try to take over Heaven by military force?  What chance did he think he had? 




Edited by islamispeace - 18 July 2009 at 3:12pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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martha View Drop Down
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Wa-laikum as-salaam brother,
 
The war in heaven...
You could say Lucifer, (Satan) thought he had a chance to succeed. I always tried to look at it before that he was no different to any disobedient child,lol. And if you look at any dictator throughout history then they certainly felt/feel they have a good chance of success by bullying and evil deeds. And we know what ultimately befalls them. Disobedience to any of Allahs laws always results in their downfall...just like Lucifer(satan, shaytan)
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islamispeace View Drop Down
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Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

Wa-laikum as-salaam brother,
 
The war in heaven...
You could say Lucifer, (Satan) thought he had a chance to succeed. I always tried to look at it before that he was no different to any disobedient child,lol. And if you look at any dictator throughout history then they certainly felt/feel they have a good chance of success by bullying and evil deeds. And we know what ultimately befalls them. Disobedience to any of Allahs laws always results in their downfall...just like Lucifer(satan, shaytan)


Thanks.  This helps to clarify the Mormon viewpoint. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Akhe Abdullah View Drop Down
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Natassia]You are assuming that God's will was dependent upon the actions of humans. Here's where we come to the paradox of omniscience. So, God is able to know all of the past, present, and future...and yet He desires that we have free will and the ability to exercise that free will. Tell me, how is an omniscient deity to interact with His creation without controlling their thoughts, choices, and actions?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 19 July 2009 at 5:14pm
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Akhe Abdullah View Drop Down
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Ahke] Salama,Natassia.Human free will does not in any way contradict the fact that God,The Witness,knows everything that will ever occur in creation.Someone might ask,"If (AstaghfirAllah) that I am going to commit a sin tommorrow,then it is unavoidable that I do so because God's Knowledge is infallible,and what God knows will come to pass."God's Knowledge of this person's decision does not mean that he or she is being force d to make that decision.Long story short God wants us to be able to make our own choices.So all this talk about the so-called crusufixion of course Allah Knew of it but maybe it was for mans own good like what are you going to take for worship know that Jesus(AS) is off the scene.Think about it.He never said that he was God reincarnated he said we all were sons of God but people with there own free will attributed things to him he(AS) did not say.The Qur'an says the things that you worship besides Allah will testify against you on the day of judgement including Jesus(AS)
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martha View Drop Down
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Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

Wa-laikum as-salaam brother,
 
The war in heaven...
You could say Lucifer, (Satan) thought he had a chance to succeed. I always tried to look at it before that he was no different to any disobedient child,lol. And if you look at any dictator throughout history then they certainly felt/feel they have a good chance of success by bullying and evil deeds. And we know what ultimately befalls them. Disobedience to any of Allahs laws always results in their downfall...just like Lucifer(satan, shaytan)


Thanks.  This helps to clarify the Mormon viewpoint. 
 
 
 
 That's good then. Mormons are Christians but not everyone understands that
 
 
 


Edited by martha - 19 July 2009 at 7:06pm
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Natassia View Drop Down
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@ Hayfa
 
Interestingly, so what is Jesus's choice or God's? Both.

Who is in control? God the Father is in control of all, and He gave authority over mankind's eternal salvation to Jesus Christ because of what the Messiah did.

If he knew he Would 'die' and would be 'resurrected' then what is the big deal? If he knew the 'ultimate' result? Jesus was still a human with human emotions and the ability to feel pain and humiliation. Crucifixion was one of the most humiliating and excruciating experiences for a human to go through. It was the method of execution for the worst of criminals. He was tortured beforehand, and then stripped of his clothing and crucified in the manner of some horrific type of spectator sport.

If Jesus IS God, then how was he 'sent' by God? Jesus "is" God in the same sense that your spoken word is you.

If Jesus is in heaven as part of the trinity, what exactly did he 'give up'? Jesus gave up his life on earth. What makes you think he wouldn't have enjoyed getting married and having children? He had to live his life PERFECTLY in accordance with the Law...and then he died in his mid-thirties in one of the worst imaginable ways.

Its like if I give money and I know that money will allow me to get more money, what did I really loose or risk? We're not talking about money. We are talking about a life.
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