"FUTURE" THOUGHTS

Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic

Salaam!
I endorse what u has said islamispeace that is the way; Islam (Quran) abrogates all scriptures! However, for the benefit of Christians I will try to give some thought using the same methodology the Christian�s commentators used. 
To identify who revelation 17 is talking about, first, you have to identify where the church is.
This is one of my articles I�ve posted some time back:
The universal Prophet and the persecution of the Church
REVELATION 12
     Revlation12:1-2 says: �And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; A WOMAN clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.� 
According to some Christian�s Scholars the �woman� represents the church and some says the �woman� represents the Jewish nation and the male child is Jesus (S).  In truth�it represents the �church� and not the �Jewish nation!� The Man child who was to rule all nations, he is the universal Prophet who brought the universal book which I have explained in Rev.10 and 14:6-7. After he brought the universal Book he died and caught up unto God and to his throne. It is not Jesus (S) as the Christian�s Scholars promoting. On the contrary when Jesus (S) comes, Rev.19:19-20 says: �the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered to make war against him�and his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet �these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.�  Not caught up unto God!   
    The saints that mentioned in Revelation 19:7-8 are the believers and they came from �her and she� which is referring to the �church� when the church is well establish for the coming of the Messiah: �Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saint.� Rev.19:7-8
  The church was divided in to two groups or branches: Rev.12:14 �And to the woman were given two wings.  And Rev.11:4-5 These are the two olive trees, and two candlestick standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth (used the word of God), and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
  Candlesticks represent churches: Rev. 1:20�the seven CANDLESTICKS which thou sawest ARE SEVEN CHURCHES.
Also, woman represented a great city: �And the woman which thou saws is that great city�� (Rev.17:18)
 The Church here is �Islam� and the �two wings or the two olive trees and two candlestick� is the two branches from the same church�the two large groups of Muslims: �Abu Hurayrah said, �The Prophet (S) said, �The Hour will not come until the following events have come to pass: two large groups will fight one another, and there will be many casualties; they will both be following the same religious teaching� Knowledge will disappear, earthquake will increase, time will pass quickly, affliction will appear, and Harj (i.e. killing) will increase. Wealth will increase�People will compete in constructing high building�the sun will rise from the west; When it rises and people see it, the will believe, but, �no good will it do a soul to believe then, if he believed not before nor earned righteousness through its faith��(al-An am 6:158; Bukhari, kitab al-Fitan,9/74)
  Crown of twelve stars: as for Ishmael�twelve prince shall he beget; I will make him a great nation. (Gen.17:20)
  And she (the woman which is the church) brought forth a MAN CHILD, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.   (Rev.12:5)  
  That is Muhammad (S) and not Jesus (S)! The second coming of Jesus (S) he will not caught up unto God again. Also, it is a known fact that Jesus (S) didn�t rule any one with a rod of iron (Psalm 2:9: You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.) before he caught up unto God. In fact, Christians believe that he was captured and kill on the cross.

Second point: Jesus (S) thought his followers to pray for the coming kingdom: Matthew 6:9-10 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.  10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. 
�His� will� shall be done on earth! What is the will? God�s will is his divine law. Jesus (S) said: �Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.�  Matthew 7:21-22 
The will of the Father will establish when that male child would have come: ��Now comes Salvation and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and power of his Christ (anointed)� (Rev.12:10). Jesus (S) said it in Matt. 6:10 :  �Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven� Matt. 6:10  
It mentioned in Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 
Therefore say I unto you The kingdom of God shall taken from you (The Jews), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matt.21:43
This is the Lord�s doings, and it is marvelous in our eyes. (In Mecca) (Matt.21:42)
Jesus (S) did not fit that but Muhammad (S) did.

If they say, in his second coming; the scripture mentioned, he will come to the Church when it is already established (his wife hath made herself ready). �wife� there represented the Church and fine linen is the righteousness of the saint.
It read:� Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife (the church) hath made herself ready. 8 And to her (the church) was granted that she (the church) should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saint.� (V.7-8)
And Rev.12:10 mentioned: ��Now comes Salvation and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and power of his Christ� (Rev.12:10). 
That would mean, �Salvation� is yet to come, so what happen to the crucifixion? They don�t have their story together!

THE �MISTRY BABYLON� BEGINNS HERE WITH THE �GREAT RED DRAGON�
  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horn, and seven crowns upon his heads. (Rev.12:3)   
The great red dragon: It is the Pagan Empire, the enemy of the church which is the sixth king: �And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come.� (Rev.17:10)
  At the time of this prophesies in Rev.17:10 five Empire has fallen and one exists at the time of this prophesy (The Pagan Empire) and the other (Modern day Pagan Empire) is yet to come. The Pagans wage war against the Roman Christian (people of the Book) and defeated them, then Allah revealed to Muhammad (S) �The Romans have been defeated. In the nearest land Syria Iraq Jordan, and Palestine), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious. Within three to nine years. The decision of the matter, before and after (these events) is only with Allah, (before the defeat of the Romans by the Persians, and after the defeat of the Persians by the Romans). And on that day, the believers (i.e. Muslims) will rejoice (at the victory given by Allah to the Romans against the Persians).� (N.Q.30:2-4)
  Then the Roman Christian (the people of the Book) under Heracles defeated the Persian Empire in March 628. After which the Romans reject the Message of the Qur�an, then Allah remove them from the light and place them into darkness, and then there were overpower by Islam in 638 (Rapid expansion of Islam). Islam took Heracles by surprise: Survival, 565�717. I�ve added in brackets to explain:
  And the woman (the church that Great City) fled into the wilderness [of Paran (Arabia) Gen.21:21], where she hath a place prepared of God, that they (Pilgrims) should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (Rev.12:6)
   After the Romans were defeated by the Muslims, there emerges a �new� Christianity: Pope Gregory the Great (590-604), he converted the Anglo-Saxon invaders of Great Britain to his new form of Christianity (Pagan Christianity) which later known as the Crusaders  [the seventh king (Empire)] then evolve in the west as the eight king (Modern day Pagan�s Empire) and he will go into eternal damnation. Rev.17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eight, and of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Rev. 6:7-8 And when he had open the forth seal�a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him, And power was given unto him over the forth part of the earth (New world: the west), to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. 
�the devil (Iblis) and Satan (Jinn), which deceive the whole world: he was cast out into the earth� (Rev.12:9) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (the church that great city) which brought forth the man child (the universal Prophet). (Rev.12:13)
The �Crusaders (Global Freemasonry.)� led by Pope Urban II in 1095, he manage to mobilize France England Germany and Italy to persecute the woman (the church that great city).
In Rev.12:14 it mentioned: �And to the woman (the church that great city) were given �two wings� (Which is the two church)�that she might fly into the wilderness [of Paran, Gen.21:21], into her place where she is nourished for a time, and time, and half a time, from the face of the serpent (The Crusaders). (Rev.12:14) 
And the serpent (Crusaders) cast out of his mouth water (water represent people, See Rev.17:15. these are Missionary) as a flood after the woman (the church that great city), that he might cause her to be carried (convert) away of the flood (by Missionaries). (Rev.12:15)  
And the (wealth of the) earth helped the woman (the church that great city), and the (wealth of the) earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood (Missionaries) which the dragon (Crusaders) cast out of his mouth. (Rev.12:16) 
The Missionaries were swallowed up by the wealth of the earth, they seek after material gains.
 And the dragon (Crusaders) was wroth (angry) with the woman (the church that great city), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God (universal message: the Qur�an), and the testimony (true teaching) of Jesus Christ. (Rev.12:17) 

tnc

Edited by truthnowcome - 24 May 2009 at 1:33am

Author	Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic
truthnowcome Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 05 April 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1045	Post Options Post Reply Quote truthnowcome Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 May 2009 at 5:10pm
	Salaam! I endorse what u has said islamispeace that is the way; Islam (Quran) abrogates all scriptures! However, for the benefit of Christians I will try to give some thought using the same methodology the Christian�s commentators used. To identify who revelation 17 is talking about, first, you have to identify where the church is. This is one of my articles I�ve posted some time back: The universal Prophet and the persecution of the Church REVELATION 12 Revlation12:1-2 says: �And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; A WOMAN clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.� According to some Christian�s Scholars the �woman� represents the church and some says the �woman� represents the Jewish nation and the male child is Jesus (S). In truth�it represents the �church� and not the �Jewish nation!� The Man child who was to rule all nations, he is the universal Prophet who brought the universal book which I have explained in Rev.10 and 14:6-7. After he brought the universal Book he died and caught up unto God and to his throne. It is not Jesus (S) as the Christian�s Scholars promoting. On the contrary when Jesus (S) comes, Rev.19:19-20 says: �the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered to make war against him�and his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet �these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.� Not caught up unto God! The saints that mentioned in Revelation 19:7-8 are the believers and they came from �her and she� which is referring to the �church� when the church is well establish for the coming of the Messiah: �Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saint.� Rev.19:7-8 The church was divided in to two groups or branches: Rev.12:14 �And to the woman were given two wings. And Rev.11:4-5 These are the two olive trees, and two candlestick standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth (used the word of God), and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. Candlesticks represent churches: Rev. 1:20�the seven CANDLESTICKS which thou sawest ARE SEVEN CHURCHES. Also, woman represented a great city: �And the woman* which thou saws is that great city�� (Rev.17:18)* The Church here is �Islam� and the �two wings or the two olive trees and two candlestick� is the two branches from the same church�the two large groups of Muslims: �Abu Hurayrah said, �The Prophet (S) said, �The Hour will not come until the following events have come to pass: two large groups will fight one another, and there will be many casualties; they will both be following the same religious teaching� Knowledge will disappear, earthquake will increase, time will pass quickly, affliction will appear, and Harj (i.e. killing) will increase. Wealth will increase�People will compete in constructing high building�the sun will rise from the west; When it rises and people see it, the will believe, but, �no good will it do a soul to believe then, if he believed not before nor earned righteousness through its faith��(al-An am 6:158; Bukhari, kitab al-Fitan,9/74) Crown of twelve stars: as for Ishmael�twelve prince shall he beget; I will make him a great nation. (Gen.17:20) And she (the woman which is the church) brought forth a MAN CHILD, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (Rev.12:5) That is Muhammad (S) and not Jesus (S)! The second coming of Jesus (S) he will not caught up unto God again. Also, it is a known fact that Jesus (S) didn�t rule any one with a rod of iron (Psalm 2:9: You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.) before he caught up unto God. In fact, Christians believe that he was captured and kill on the cross. Second point: Jesus (S) thought his followers to pray for the coming kingdom: Matthew 6:9-10 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come, Thy will* be done on earth, as it is in heaven.* �His� will� shall be done on earth! What is the will? God�s will is his divine law. Jesus (S) said: �Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father* which is in heaven.�* Matthew 7:21-22 The will of the Father will establish when that male child would have come: ��*Now comes Salvation* and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and power of his Christ (anointed)� (Rev.12:10). Jesus (S) said it in Matt. 6:10 : �Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven� Matt. 6:10 It mentioned in Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit* down in the kingdom of God.* Therefore say I unto you The kingdom of God shall taken from you (The Jews), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matt.21:43 This is the Lord�s doings, and it is marvelous in our eyes. *(In Mecca)* (Matt.21:42) Jesus (S) did not fit that but Muhammad (S) did. If they say, in his second coming; the scripture mentioned, he will come to the Church when it is already established (his wife hath made herself ready). �wife� there represented the Church and fine linen is the righteousness of the saint. It read:� Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife (the church) hath made herself ready. 8 And to her (the church) was granted that she (the church) should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saint.� (V.7-8) And Rev.12:10 mentioned: ��*Now comes Salvation* and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and power of his Christ� (Rev.12:10). That would mean, �Salvation� is yet to come, so what happen to the crucifixion? They don�t have their story together! THE �MISTRY BABYLON� BEGINNS HERE WITH THE �GREAT RED DRAGON� And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horn, and seven crowns upon his heads. (Rev.12:3) The great red dragon: It is the Pagan Empire, the enemy of the church which is the sixth king: �And there are seven kings: five* are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come.� (Rev.17:10) At the time of this prophesies in Rev.17:10 five* Empire has fallen and one exists at the time of this prophesy (The Pagan Empire) and the other (Modern day Pagan Empire) is yet to come. The Pagans wage war against the Roman Christian (people of the Book) and defeated them, then Allah revealed to Muhammad (S) �The Romans have been defeated. In the nearest land Syria Iraq Jordan, and Palestine), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious. Within three to nine years. The decision of the matter, before and after (these events) is only with Allah, (before the defeat of the Romans by the Persians, and after the defeat of the Persians by the Romans). And on that day, the believers (i.e. Muslims) will rejoice (at the victory given by Allah to the Romans against the Persians).� (N.Q.30:2-4) Then the Roman Christian (the people of the Book) under Heracles defeated the Persian Empire in March 628. After which the Romans reject the Message of the Qur�an, then Allah remove them from the light and place them into darkness, and then there were overpower by Islam in 638 (Rapid expansion of Islam). Islam took Heracles by surprise: Survival, 565�717. I�ve added in brackets to explain: And the woman (the church that Great City) fled into the wilderness [of Paran (Arabia) Gen.21:21], where she hath a place prepared of God, that they (Pilgrims) should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (Rev.12:6) After the Romans were defeated by the Muslims, there emerges a �new� Christianity: Pope Gregory the Great (590-604), he converted the Anglo-Saxon invaders of Great Britain to his new form of Christianity (Pagan Christianity) which later known as the Crusaders [the seventh king (Empire)] then evolve in the west as the eight king (Modern day Pagan�s Empire) and he will go into eternal damnation. Rev.17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eight, and of the seven, and goeth into perdition. Rev. 6:7-8 And when he had open the forth seal�a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him, And power was given unto him over the forth part of the earth (New world: the west), to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. �the devil (Iblis) and Satan (Jinn), which deceive the whole world: he was cast out into the earth� (Rev.12:9) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (the church that great city) which brought forth the man child (the universal Prophet). (Rev.12:13) The �Crusaders (Global Freemasonry.)� led by Pope Urban II in 1095, he manage to mobilize France England Germany and Italy to persecute the woman (the church that great city). In Rev.12:14 it mentioned: �And to the woman (the church that great city) were given �two wings� (Which is the two church)�that she might fly into the wilderness [of Paran, Gen.21:21], into her place where she is nourished for a time, and time, and half a time, from the face of the serpent (The Crusaders). (Rev.12:14) And the serpent (Crusaders) cast out of his mouth water (water represent people, See Rev.17:15. these are Missionary) as a flood after the woman (the church that great city), that he might cause her to be carried (convert) away of the flood (by Missionaries). (Rev.12:15) And the (wealth of the) earth helped the woman (the church that great city), and the (wealth of the) earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood (Missionaries) which the dragon (Crusaders) cast out of his mouth. (Rev.12:16) The Missionaries were swallowed up by the wealth of the earth, they seek after material gains. And the dragon (Crusaders) was wroth (angry) with the woman (the church that great city), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God (universal message: the Qur�an), and the testimony (true teaching) of Jesus Christ. (Rev.12:17) tnc Edited by truthnowcome - 24 May 2009 at 1:33am
	LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

islamispeace Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2187	Post Options Post Reply Quote islamispeace Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 May 2009 at 1:27pm
	I would not put too much faith in what Revelations has to say. In fact, I don't think we should put any faith in Revelations. It can be interpreted in so many ways. The Quran and Hadiths should be sufficient for us. By us, I mean Muslims, of course. Edited by islamispeace - 22 May 2009 at 1:29pm
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Nazarene Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 05 September 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 298	Post Options Post Reply Quote Nazarene Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 May 2009 at 4:53am
	ASSLAAM ALAIKUM !! i've noticed an intrest in this topic from those in this forum both muslim and christain. i would like to start a new thread on the subject of the future. as a muslim i know it's all in gods hands and only he knows the time. it's not our place to proclaim what , when or where. but allah gives us signs in both New Testement and the Qu'ran. so that we may be assured of the truth of the message. so that WE SHALL BE RECONIZED by god on the last day as faithful and true. this being said i shall start things off. i'll state here for arguement that the below implicates the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE RELIGIONS BASED UPON THIER FAITH. Revelation 17:3-4 (New International Version) ³Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. ⁴The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. is there a religion that covers the globe whos offical colors are PURPLE AND SCARLET? LOOK IN THE CORNER OF THE CHRISTAIN FLAG. WHAT COLOR IS THE FIELD? WHAT COLOR IS THE CROSS? and does the head of the roman church adorn himself with gold precious stones and pearls? Revelation 17:5 (New International Version) ⁵This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. it's the christain thought that this refers to the false religion that consumes the earth in the end of times. lets take a closer look at this " mystery " first lets look at the word {MYSTERY} ¹mys�tery Pronunciation: \ˈmis-t(ə-)rē\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural mys�ter�ies Etymology: Middle English mysterie, from Latin mysterium, from Greek mystērion, from mystēs initiate Date: 14th century 1 a: a religious truth that one can know only by revelation and cannot fully understand b (1): any of the 15 events (as the Nativity, the Crucifixion, or the Assumption) serving as a subject for meditation during the saying of the rosary (2)capitalized : a Christian sacrament ; specifically : eucharist c (1): a secret religious rite believed (as in Eleusinian and Mithraic cults) to impart enduring bliss to the initiate (2): a cult devoted to such rites2 a: something not understood or beyond understanding : enigma bobsolete : a private secret c: the secret or specialized practices or ritual peculiar to an occupation or a body of people <the mysteries of the tailor's craft> d: a piece of fiction dealing usually with the solution of a mysterious crime3: profound, inexplicable, or secretive quality or character <the mystery of her smile> now that we have a definition how do we aply it . well the next line gives the clue: BABYLON THE GREAT sence the topic is religion we must assume MYSTERY being spoken of here is the practices of BABYLON THE GREAT. so what were they? 1] Crusifiction. this practice was invented by babylon the great and later perfected by Rome. 2]Sacrifice of atonement. this was also practiced by BABYLON THE GREAT.{ they would combine to the two as a human sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin to have a prosporus life and a bountiful harvest to the god DAGON.AND THE { " SON " } OF DAGON WAS BAAL in BABYLONION AND Cannite faith in which they two would sacrifice people for the same reasons} 3] Kneeling to pray with hands together. in the carvings from BABYLON THE GREAT you'll find the preists of Dagon praying with there hands together and worshipers kneeling with hands together. THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES all that follow this religion or so to say sub-religions based upon the thoughts and practices of the MOTHER or orgins of thier religion of faith. AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. no group of people in the history of the world comited more sinful crimes aginst humanity that CHRISTANITY! from the persecution of the jews and so called non-believers thoughout history { inquisitions :spain 60,000 to 150'000 killed in the name of jesus. france:100,000 to 250,000. including my people} then the burning of women as witches. at least 500,000 killed. many as young 9 yrs old. mostly because they learned of mathmatics, to read , to think as free people.these are just a drop in the bucket over 1600 yrs. i'll leave it here for now. i invite all if they wish to paste other posts they may have ealse where here to save drifting in " other topics " love leland Edited by Nazarene - 26 May 2009 at 4:00pm
	love for all conquers all

"FUTURE" THOUGHTS

Revelation 17:3-4 (New International Version)