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Logic and the Godhead

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Apollos View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 February 2009 at 7:55pm

 

I have noticed that Muslims primary objection to the nature of God according to Christianity is � it doesn�t make sense to them. I think that all Muslims contend that the concept of God having a plural nature or God taking on the form of a human is just plain illogical and this is their starting point on the subject. Based on their conviction that such a concept is impossible they debate what the Bible �really� says, etc. but these are just by-products of the initial premise.

 

Most Christians agree that a plurality of persons in the Godhead is not intuitive. Except for some imperfect analogies we don�t see such an example elsewhere in nature. On the other hand Christians don�t confuse intuition with logic nor do we dismiss something as illogical when it is only a reflection of limited human knowledge. In this post I would like to demonstrate why the Christian concept of the Godhead is not illogical. If you want to reject it because you don�t like it, fine but you should know that your credibility is undercut if you assert the problem is a logical one.

 

Limitations of Knowledge

 

While there are a good many things that we can draw this conclusion about, there are times when people misapply this claim and are just revealing their own limitations. Here are some examples.

 

1. If we don�t account for additional dimensions of reality, we will draw a wrong conclusion from logical observations. For example, we all know that a triangle has three angles and the degrees of each of these angles will always add up to 180 degrees � correct? But this is really a na�ve statement because it presumes a two dimensional context. It only works if you are using a two dimensional piece of paper or surface. If we lay out a triangle over a sphere (like the earth for example) each angle of this triangle will be 90 degrees and the total will add up to 270 degrees. In the context of two dimensions, the axiom that a triangle�s angles will add up to 180 degrees makes sense but in the context of three dimensions the axiom is clearly wrong. The point to remember here is - If God exists in a dimension beyond our own, it would be na�ve to use the logic of our time and space dimensions to draw conclusions about God.

 

2. If we don�t account for our own subjectivity we may draw a wrong conclusion from logical observations. For example, when we put a straight stick partially into a pool of water, it appears to our eyes that the stick is no longer straight. If we rely on our own observations and thoughts on this we might conclude that the water has bent the stick. Some of us may suspect something else is involved and come up with theories on why the stick appears to bend and straighten as we move it in and out of the water. Until we test our theories objectively we are just guessing. If we refuse to believe anything but our own eyes and feelings on the experience, we are not being logical at all but simply subjective.

 

3. A double slight of hand is used when a Muslim says that the Christian concept of God is impossible or incoherent. In addition to the above factors, the Muslim is being hypocritical because they believe in many things that �don�t make logical sense� but they are only objecting to a few. For example, they believe God is eternal but they have no human way to comprehend eternity. They can�t comprehend a spirit or soul within our bodies but they accept it as true. Saying that you reject something on the basis of your own human comprehension is hypocritical.

 
Apollos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _ALI_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2009 at 3:20am
Salam Apollos
I have noticed that Muslims primary objection to the nature of God according to Christianity is � it doesn�t make sense to them.
That is incorrect. The Muslim's primary objection to the nature of God is according to Christianity is: it contradicts with Quran. It is also illogical but that is not the primary objection. Christians contradict this verse of the Quran 

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً ﴿١٧١﴾

 

171:

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

I think that all Muslims contend that the concept of God having a plural nature or God taking on the form of a human is just plain illogical and this is their starting point on the subject.
I agree.
Based on their conviction that such a concept is impossible they debate what the Bible �really� says, etc. but these are just by-products of the initial premise.
On the contrary, Christians believe without any reason or logic that God exists in the form of trinity. That is why they debate that trinity exists, though even the word trinity is never used in the Bible. So you say that the Bible "really" believes in trinity, while when I visit biblegateway.com and try to search the word trinity in the Bible, it says
No results found.
No results were found for trinity in the version(s):King James Version, New International Version or New King James Version.
Try refining your search using the form above.

Most Christians agree that a plurality of persons in the Godhead is not intuitive. Except for some imperfect analogies we don�t see such an example elsewhere in nature. On the other hand Christians don�t confuse intuition with logic nor do we dismiss something as illogical when it is only a reflection of limited human knowledge. In this post I would like to demonstrate why the Christian concept of the Godhead is not illogical. If you want to reject it because you don�t like it, fine but you should know that your credibility is undercut if you assert the problem is a logical one.

But now you used a new word:godhead, considering it to be synonymous with trinity. First of all even godhead does not appear once in the new testament. Why? Why didn't Jesus utter trinity/godhead considered to be the centre of Christianity? Godhead occurs only three times in the scriptures of the Jews i.e old testament. So it would be more appropriate for the Jews to define this word, not Muslims or Christians. I don't know of a single Jew who says godhead=trinity. So I have no idea how you equated these two words
Peace


Edited by _ALI_ - 27 February 2009 at 8:25am
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Nur_Ilahi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nur_Ilahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2009 at 5:16am

Assalamualaikum Ali (happened to be my husband's name too),

It is also very surprising that the word Christianity is not even in the Bible. In other words, who named this religion Christianity? Not The Lord, nor was it the Prophet Jesus. Then who named it?
 
And they called the Bible the word of God?
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Apollos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2009 at 10:28am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Assalamualaikum Ali (happened to be my husband's name too),

It is also very surprising that the word Christianity is not even in the Bible. In other words, who named this religion Christianity? Not The Lord, nor was it the Prophet Jesus. Then who named it?
 
And they called the Bible the word of God?
The term Christian was applied to the follwers of Christ by its enemies but we still use it because the world knows what this means. We often call ourselves "followers of Christ", "believers", etc. among ourselves. The same goes for the term Christianity which the world understands to mean "the faith of those who follow Christ". But your post implies that your faith is based entirely on the Quran. "Muslim" is not in the Quran. Does that mean you should not use the word?
 
Apollos


Edited by Apollos - 25 February 2009 at 11:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Apollos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2009 at 11:34am
Original Apollos in black, Ali response in bold black, this post by Apollos in blue.
 
I have noticed that Muslims primary objection to the nature of God according to Christianity is � it doesn�t make sense to them.

That is incorrect. The Muslim's primary objection to the nature of God is according to Christianity is: it contradicts with Quran.

 

OK. I stand corrected. I hope those Muslims who keep claiming that Christian beliefs are illogical would be honest enough to admit that even if our beliefs were logical they would reject them anyway so that debate is irrelevant. Otherwise we all waste time debating something that doesn�t matter to Muslims, correct?

 

It is also illogical but that is not the primary objection.

 

Well now we are back to the point of this post. You want to assert something and then run away. Either defend your assertion or stop making it.

 

I think that all Muslims contend that the concept of God having a plural nature or God taking on the form of a human is just plain illogical and this is their starting point on the subject.

I agree.

 

So please defend and prove your claim that this is an illogical concept.

 

Based on their conviction that such a concept is impossible they debate what the Bible �really� says, etc. but these are just by-products of the initial premise.

On the contrary, Christians believe without any reason or logic that God exists in the form of trinity.

 

The logic is crystal clear and follows from four premises:

There is one God.

The Father is called God

The Son is called God

The Spirit is called God

 

Please show where one of the premises is incorrect or where a different conclusion is logical.

 

That is why they debate that trinity exists, though even the word trinity is never used in the Bible.

 

This type of objection is either na�ve or hypocritical. We use all sorts of words not found in Scripture to describe concepts within Scripture � and you do too. How about Tawhid or Tawheed? These are not found in the Quran. Are they contrary to the Quran? Of course not. So this is a red herring, another logical fallacy.

Most Christians agree that a plurality of persons in the Godhead is not intuitive. Except for some imperfect analogies we don�t see such an example elsewhere in nature. On the other hand Christians don�t confuse intuition with logic nor do we dismiss something as illogical when it is only a reflection of limited human knowledge. In this post I would like to demonstrate why the Christian concept of the Godhead is not illogical. If you want to reject it because you don�t like it, fine but you should know that your credibility is undercut if you assert the problem is a logical one.

But now you used a new word:godhead, considering it to be synonymous with trinity. First of all even godhead does not appear once in the new testament.

 

Wrong again � here are three:

 

Act 17:29  Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

 

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

Why? Why didn't Jesus utter trinity/godhead considered to be the centre of Christianity? Godhead occurs only three times in the scriptures of the Jews i.e old testament. So it would be more appropriate for the Jews to define this word, not Muslims or Christians. I don't know of a single Jew who says godhead=trinity. So I have no idea how you equated these two words.

 

As I showed above, you are getting lots of things wrong. �God head� is in the New Testament. (Maybe you don�t know the difference between the Old and New Testaments?). You are the one who brought up the term �trinity� not I which shows you understand the implications of three persons being called the one God.

 

Additionally I have not said Godhead = Trinity. I have simply referred to the Godhead as consisting of three persons - based on the premises I described. If you think this concept is illogical demonstrate it so. If you think only your concept of the Godhead is logical, please demonstrate that. But let�s not get sidetracked with irrelevant issues. If you think the Bible describes another concept of God, who cares? You don�t base your beliefs on the Bible and you don�t even know the Old Testament from the New. If you think the Quran should be believed instead of the Bible that is also a separate issue. This post is about logic and the Godhead.

 

Apollos

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2009 at 6:34pm

"The logic is crystal clear and follows from four premises:

There is one God.

The Father is called God

The Son is called God

The Spirit is called God"

 
Where are the Son and the Spirit called God?
 
The word "Godhead" may appear in older versions of the New Testament, but it does not state anywhere that the Godhead consists of three persons.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhe Abdullah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2009 at 6:46pm
[/QUOTE]As Salamu Alaikum Ali.Mashallah!
�

Admin: Please clean up the "clutter". Tips: for the future if you copy from other site, please paste it in "note pad" or other text editor before you past it here. So you will not bring the "clutter" here.


Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 25 February 2009 at 9:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2009 at 7:10pm
"On the other hand Christians don�t confuse intuition with logic nor do we dismiss something as illogical when it is only a reflection of limited human knowledge."
 
We can all agree that humans have limited knowledge in regards to the nature of God. As our Creator God knows our limitations and what we as humans can and cannot comprehend, therefore He sent us guidance in the form of holy texts, Prophets, and Messengers. We have only what God Himself has revealed to us of His nature, therefore, anything other than what God has revealed is mere conjecture on the part of man.
 
With this in mind, please post proof positive that God stated clearly so that humans with their limited knowledge could comprehend, that He is a Trinity, a plurality, etc... 
 
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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