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JOUBERAR View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2009 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Originally posted by JOUBERAR JOUBERAR wrote:

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Jouberar,

You don't seem to understand the simple facts which BMZ and ShastasAunt have pointed out to you, but you do keep repeating ad nauseum the same misconception.  Try to understand.  Re-read what BMZ wrote.  The answer is there.  Also, re-read what ShastasAunt wrote.  It points out the holes in your argument, and the illogical premise you hold.  Oh and try to control your mouth.  Your responses are littered with ad hominem attacks which only expose your own immature, childish mannerisms.  Referring to people as "idiotic" will not win you any hearts and minds.
 
I challence you man to man "layout' that miracle for me "spiritually" of the seven men that was sleeping for 309 years in a cave what will you gain  spiritually for say even sleeping for 3 months no food no live support and you  expect it to be a miracle.
 
And I am  telling my point is not Childish this is ungodly lies and what you want to tell me God will allow that humans will make up stories about so called miracles that HE would not allowed. 


The seven sleepers in the cave story is not an Islamic concoction, Jouberar. Christians and Jews used to come to Prophet and used to ask him questions, he could not answer. Came in Revelations, instantly and he used to recite out for all to hear.

Here is the story from non-Muslim source and according to it, they slept for 185 years (435-250=185) and the message of Qur'aan is that do not imagine the exact number of years. Don't believe in "Some say 185, some say 250, some say 300 and some even add another nine years to make it 309 years.

You will notice the same guessing game and conjectures can be found in the dating of the gospels.  LOL


THE STORY

Source: http://www.sacred-destinations.com/turkey/ephesus-cave-of-the-seven-sleepers.htm

Quote The "Seven Sleepers" were seven young men who had been walled up in a cave during the persecutions under Decius (c.250). They fell asleep, miraculously waking up around 435 in the time of Theodosius II.

The seven men wandered into the city of Ephesus, amazed at all the churches and the freedom of worship for Christians. The Sleepers later died naturally (and permanently) and were buried in the cave in which they had slept.

The miracle was apparently first described by Bishop Stephen of Ephesus (448-51). It seems to have been immediately accepted, perhaps in part because of its usefulness for a current Origenist controversy having to do with the resurrection of the body. Interestingly, the Seven Sleepers also appear in the Qur'an (Koran); in this version, the boys are accompanied by a dog (Sura 18).

The grotto associated with the Seven Sleepers, located on the eastern slope of Panayirdag hill, became a highly venerated site and a major place of pilgrimage from the 5th to 15th centuries. Many people were buried in the grotto with the Sleepers. A brick church was built above the seven original tombs, with mosaic floors and marble revetments. A large, domed mausoleum was added to the cave in the 6th century.

Excavations were carried out in the Grotto of the Seven Sleepers between 1927 and 1930. Intriguingly, the archaeologists discovered that the cave complex predates the legend by several centuries. An abundance of lamps found in the Grotto date from before the 5th century, and not all of them are Christian.

What to See

The Grotto of the Seven Sleepers is fenced off, but a large hole in the fence currently provides full access to the cave. The site is a bit off the beaten track, but still visited by many pilgrims and tourists. There is a small restaurant nearby.

The main part of the complex is the cave church in which the Seven Sleepers slept and were buried. The large cave, with a ceiling as high as many regular churches, has been lined with brick masonry to form a church. There are arch niches on the sides and a rounded apse in the back. The burial places of the sleepers in the floor are now open, empty holes.

Although it cannot be appreciated at the site, one of the most interesting aspects of the Grotto is the treasure trove of terracotta lamps that was discovered inside. They date primarily to the 4th and 5th centuries. Most of the lamps are decorated with a cross; others bear scenes from the Old Testament popular with Christians, such as Adam and Eve, Abraham and Isaac, and Daniel in the lions� den. There are also a wide variety of secular scenes, such as fishermen and theatre performances.

But alongside these are pagan religious scenes such as Hercules and the lion, Zeus and Aphrodite, pictures of temple facades, and the head of the god Attis. Were these lamps made and used by Ephesians who considered themselves Christians but retained pagan traditions, or did pagans join Christians in devotions at the Cave of the Seven Sleepers? The answer is not clear, but either way it is evidence that paganism was still alive in 5h-century Ephesus.


Cheers

BMZ


 
So the seven sleepers was axctually buried in the same cave as that they slept for 309 years what a coincidence.
The Sleepers later died naturally (and permanently) and were buried in the cave in which they had slept.
How obvious is that they were buried in the same cave as that they so call slept for 309 years.
Note Yusuf Ali's attempts to delineate the exact time period of this story in footnote no.2365, and then concludes that it is merely a parable.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2009 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by JOUBERAR JOUBERAR wrote:

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Jouberar,

You don't seem to understand the simple facts which BMZ and ShastasAunt have pointed out to you, but you do keep repeating ad nauseum the same misconception.  Try to understand.  Re-read what BMZ wrote.  The answer is there.  Also, re-read what ShastasAunt wrote.  It points out the holes in your argument, and the illogical premise you hold.  Oh and try to control your mouth.  Your responses are littered with ad hominem attacks which only expose your own immature, childish mannerisms.  Referring to people as "idiotic" will not win you any hearts and minds.
 
I challence you man to man "layout' that miracle for me "spiritually" of the seven men that was sleeping for 309 years in a cave what will you gain  spiritually for say even sleeping for 3 months no food no live support and you  expect it to be a miracle.
 
And I am  telling my point is not Childish this is ungodly lies and what you want to tell me God will allow that humans will make up stories about so called miracles that HE would not allowed. 


Huh?  I am not sure what you are asking but I will try to answer.  What they "gained" was the ability to resist the oppression of a pagan emperor.  By sealing them in the cave, it was the hope of the pagans to kill those pious men.  That did not happen as God miraculously kept the men alive but in a state of sleep.  God can do anything, right? 

If you want to talk about made-up miracles, you should talk about the resurrection of your god.  Now that is a lie, if I have ever heard one.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2009 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Originally posted by JOUBERAR JOUBERAR wrote:

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Jouberar,

You don't seem to understand the simple facts which BMZ and ShastasAunt have pointed out to you, but you do keep repeating ad nauseum the same misconception.  Try to understand.  Re-read what BMZ wrote.  The answer is there.  Also, re-read what ShastasAunt wrote.  It points out the holes in your argument, and the illogical premise you hold.  Oh and try to control your mouth.  Your responses are littered with ad hominem attacks which only expose your own immature, childish mannerisms.  Referring to people as "idiotic" will not win you any hearts and minds.
 
I challence you man to man "layout' that miracle for me "spiritually" of the seven men that was sleeping for 309 years in a cave what will you gain  spiritually for say even sleeping for 3 months no food no live support and you  expect it to be a miracle.
 
And I am  telling my point is not Childish this is ungodly lies and what you want to tell me God will allow that humans will make up stories about so called miracles that HE would not allowed. 


Huh?  I am not sure what you are asking but I will try to answer.  What they "gained" was the ability to resist the oppression of a pagan emperor.  By sealing them in the cave, it was the hope of the pagans to kill those pious men.  That did not happen as God miraculously kept the men alive but in a state of sleep.  God can do anything, right? 

If you want to talk about made-up miracles, you should talk about the resurrection of your god.  Now that is a lie, if I have ever heard one.
 Who made up your god if you read it was Jesus that was resurected I am not talking about made up miracles Christians even today can bring people back from the dead thats why I believe in Christ his miracles still happens today like he said if you do not believe in me believe my works but in islam you dont see any of there so called miracles today as it was written in the Quran.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2009 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by JOUBERAR JOUBERAR wrote:

 
 
So the seven sleepers was axctually buried in the same cave as that they slept for 309 years what a coincidence.
The Sleepers later died naturally (and permanently) and were buried in the cave in which they had slept.
How obvious is that they were buried in the same cave as that they so call slept for 309 years.
Note Yusuf Ali's attempts to delineate the exact time period of this story in footnote no.2365, and then concludes that it is merely a parable.
 


The moral of that story, from Qur'aan, is that stop guessing games and conjecture.

Whether they slept 300 years or 309 years or slept for 36 hours like Jesus did by taking a rest, hidden somewhere; no one knows.
Only Allah knows the truth.


Neither you were there nor was I. Instead of worrying about Yusuf Ali, follow my commentary here.

BMZ

Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2009 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by JOUBERAR JOUBERAR wrote:

 
Who made up your god if you read it was Jesus that was resurected I am not talking about made up miracles Christians even today can bring people back from the dead thats why I believe in Christ his miracles still happens today like he said if you do not believe in me believe my works but in islam you dont see any of there so called miracles today as it was written in the Quran.  


Can you please ask someone to bring back Michael Jackson? I miss him.

There are three days and three nights still available. 

BMZ

Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2009 at 6:11pm
Jouberar, no matter how hard you try you cant discredit The Holy Qur'an,or Al Islam.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2009 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by JOUBERAR JOUBERAR wrote:

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Originally posted by JOUBERAR JOUBERAR wrote:

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Jouberar,

You don't seem to understand the simple facts which BMZ and ShastasAunt have pointed out to you, but you do keep repeating ad nauseum the same misconception.  Try to understand.  Re-read what BMZ wrote.  The answer is there.  Also, re-read what ShastasAunt wrote.  It points out the holes in your argument, and the illogical premise you hold.  Oh and try to control your mouth.  Your responses are littered with ad hominem attacks which only expose your own immature, childish mannerisms.  Referring to people as "idiotic" will not win you any hearts and minds.
 
I challence you man to man "layout' that miracle for me "spiritually" of the seven men that was sleeping for 309 years in a cave what will you gain  spiritually for say even sleeping for 3 months no food no live support and you  expect it to be a miracle.
 
And I am  telling my point is not Childish this is ungodly lies and what you want to tell me God will allow that humans will make up stories about so called miracles that HE would not allowed. 


Huh?  I am not sure what you are asking but I will try to answer.  What they "gained" was the ability to resist the oppression of a pagan emperor.  By sealing them in the cave, it was the hope of the pagans to kill those pious men.  That did not happen as God miraculously kept the men alive but in a state of sleep.  God can do anything, right? 

If you want to talk about made-up miracles, you should talk about the resurrection of your god.  Now that is a lie, if I have ever heard one.
 Who made up your god if you read it was Jesus that was resurected I am not talking about made up miracles Christians even today can bring people back from the dead thats why I believe in Christ his miracles still happens today like he said if you do not believe in me believe my works but in islam you dont see any of there so called miracles today as it was written in the Quran.  


LOL Who is this guy?  Christians are bringing people back from the dead??  I don't have time for such absurdities.  Jouberar, you find to find another hobby dude. 
LOL
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2009 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Originally posted by JOUBERAR JOUBERAR wrote:

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Originally posted by JOUBERAR JOUBERAR wrote:

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

Jouberar,

You don't seem to understand the simple facts which BMZ and ShastasAunt have pointed out to you, but you do keep repeating ad nauseum the same misconception.  Try to understand.  Re-read what BMZ wrote.  The answer is there.  Also, re-read what ShastasAunt wrote.  It points out the holes in your argument, and the illogical premise you hold.  Oh and try to control your mouth.  Your responses are littered with ad hominem attacks which only expose your own immature, childish mannerisms.  Referring to people as "idiotic" will not win you any hearts and minds.
 
I challence you man to man "layout' that miracle for me "spiritually" of the seven men that was sleeping for 309 years in a cave what will you gain  spiritually for say even sleeping for 3 months no food no live support and you  expect it to be a miracle.
 
And I am  telling my point is not Childish this is ungodly lies and what you want to tell me God will allow that humans will make up stories about so called miracles that HE would not allowed. 


Huh?  I am not sure what you are asking but I will try to answer.  What they "gained" was the ability to resist the oppression of a pagan emperor.  By sealing them in the cave, it was the hope of the pagans to kill those pious men.  That did not happen as God miraculously kept the men alive but in a state of sleep.  God can do anything, right? 

If you want to talk about made-up miracles, you should talk about the resurrection of your god.  Now that is a lie, if I have ever heard one.
 Who made up your god if you read it was Jesus that was resurected I am not talking about made up miracles Christians even today can bring people back from the dead thats why I believe in Christ his miracles still happens today like he said if you do not believe in me believe my works but in islam you dont see any of there so called miracles today as it was written in the Quran.  


LOL Who is this guy?  Christians are bringing people back from the dead??  I don't have time for such absurdities.  Jouberar, you find to find another hobby dude. 
LOL
 
Mt 22:29-32
Jesus said to them in reply, "You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Mt 5:29-30
(He [Jesus] began to teach them ...) If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.
Jn 11:22-26
Jesus said to her (Martha), "Your brother will rise." Martha said to him, "I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Jn 6:40
(Jesus explained to them (the disciples):) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day.
Jn 6:51
(Jesus told them:) I am the living bread ... whoever eats this bread will live forever
Jn 6:54
(Jesus told them:) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day
 
1 Cor 15:42-44
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible. It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

Christian evidence of raising people form the dead.

 A young boy raised from the dead in Finland in April 1950, Branham said, was the fulfilment of a vision he had told audiences during his campaign meetings.
Two years prior to the Helsinki campaign, God had shown Bro. Branham a vision of a boy being raised from the dead. He related the details to his audiences and asked them to write the vision in the flyleaf of their Bibles. The vision was fulfilled at the scene of an accident, near Kuopio, Finland, where a boy on a bicycle had been struck by a car and killed. The Branham party travelling in a motorcade came upon the scene and Brother Branham, asking that the sheet covering the body be removed, recognized the boy to be the same one he had seen in the vision. He prayed and the child was raised from the dead.
 
 
Branham vehemently believed that the Bible was the infallible Word of God. He stated that anything contrary to the Word of God was Satan's kingdom.
 
Another evidence.
 
The report reads, "Although some of what happened to Pastor Ekechukwu is certainly extra-biblical, none of it is unbiblical. Indeed, neither the story of pastor Ekechukwu's resurrection or the story of your salvation is found in the Bible, making them both extra-biblical, but neither should be discounted on that basis!" (The italic quotes in this critique are direct quotations from David Kirkwood�s article documenting this resurrection..)
 
"The next morning, when the mortician attempted to cut Daniel's inner thigh in order to insert a tube by which he could inject more embalming fluid, he experienced a strange shock that pushed him away from the corpse. This did not surprise him, as he had experienced similar forces before and attributed them to occult powers (such things are widely practiced in Africa and highly respected by most African pastors whom I know). After a second attempt and a second shock, he concluded that Daniel must have been a member of a powerful secret society. He assumed, however, that after some occult sacrifices and incantations the powers in the corpse would subside, and he could then complete his work. (This mortician, of course, was not a Christian, but converted after Daniel's resurrection.)  Incidentally, Daniel said that people could smell the embalming chemicals coming out of his body for two weeks after his resurrection. They would hug him and hold their noses!"
 
 
 "Daniel's wife experienced a dream in which she saw the face of her husband, and he was asking her why they had left him in the mortuary. He stated that he was not dead and that she should take him to Onitsha where German evangelist Reinhard Bonnke was preaching. She determined to do so, even though her family thought she was out of her mind
 
How do I know that this dream of Daniel�s wife was the fulfilment of Acts 2:17?.
 

The information from Pastor Eku�s wife�s dream was that "he [Daniel] stated that he was not dead and that she should take him to Onitsha where German evangelist Reinhard Bonnke was preaching." If this is a true statement or revelation in the dream, then this is not the story of a resurrection from the dead but a 42-hour near-death experience and then the human being was resuscitated. There�s a conflict here. The dream said that Dan was not dead, but David Kirkwood�s story stated that

"Finally they drove to the Eunice Clinic, and there Daniel was confirmed to be dead by Doctor Josse Annebunwa. There was no breathing, no heartbeat or pulse, and Daniel's pupils were fixed. The doctor said that there was nothing he could do. A death certificate was issued at 11:30 P.M., November 30, 2001. . .  The mortician, however, had to cut the clothing in order to clothe Daniel because his body was as stiff as a board."  The most surprising thing is what happened next. The escorting angel told Pastor Daniel, �If your record is to be called here, you will in no doubt be thrown into hell.� Pastor Daniel immediately defended himself saying, �I am a man of God! I serve Him with all my heart!� But a Bible immediately appeared in the angel's hand, and it was opened to Matthew 5 where Jesus warned that if one calls his brother a fool he is guilty enough to go into the hell of fire (see Matt. 5:21-22). Pastor Daniel knew he was guilty for the angry words spoken to his wife. The angel also reminded him that Jesus promised that God will not forgive our sins if we do not forgive others (see Matt. 6:14-15) because we will reap what we have sown. Only those who are merciful will obtain mercy (Matt 5:7). The angel told Daniel that the prayers he prayed as he was dying in the hospital were of no effect, because he refused to forgive his wife even when she attempted to reconcile on the morning of his fatal accident." Performing miracles is not necessarily a sign of spiritual acceptance with God and assurance of a person's entrance into God's eternal kingdom  I trust and hope that the testimony contained essential gospel content and not just the unbiblical invitation to "ask Jesus into your heart."  The verses of Romans 10:9-10, 17 provide some core elements of this gospel:
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. . .  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
 
.
What about the resurrections of Lazarus (John 11), the raising of Jairus�s daughter (Luke 8), the raising of the son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7), the resurrection of Tabitha/Dorcas (Acts 9:36ff)?
 
This is not my hobby but God's reality thats why I have a great love and fear for God and I have no interest in material things.

"And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons: freely you have received, freely give." (Matthew 10:7-8)

To deny that God can raise the dead, as he has promised to do (cf. Dan. 12:2; Jn. 5:28-29; 1 Cor. 15), is an expression of unbelief. Actually, it reflects upon the power of the Almighty.
 
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