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Angela
Senior Member
Joined: 11 July 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2555
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Posted: 17 December 2008 at 5:59pm |
Actually Friendship, the OT or Tanakh was written down from oral tradition around 600BC by Jews in Babylon, Alexandria and other locations. The NT's earliest books are about 60AD - 100AD. The Quran was revealed in the 7th Century...if anything the Quran is a continuation of the previous two books.
The problem here is one must separate the term Jew into the secular. You are talking about a time period where of the two Israelite kingdoms only the Kingdom of Judah was surviving. The 10 tribes had been smashed and scattered and the "Israelites" were no more, it was only the tribe of Judah with a few Levite priests.
Those monotheistic worshipers in the area of the Kingdom of Judah were called Jews by their comtemporaries. Muslim (an arabic word) was not used to describe monotheistic followers of God did not come into practice until after Muhammed (pbuh) was called as a Prophet.
One thing that can be agreed upon is that the line of Prophets descended through the tribe of Judah to John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazerath. Despite what came after them, they lived and "died" as Jews. They worshipped in the Jewish Temple which meant they had to circumsised, bar mitzvah'd and purified as Jews/members of the faith of the Jewish people.
There success or failure at changing the hearts of their brethern. But, we have to recognize that even though Muhammed (pbuh) was born to a pagan family, but returned Islam to his people, didn't change his "Arabness."
As citizens of Judah, as members of the tribe of Judah, John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazerath were jews. Their religious definition can be debated until the Last Day, but in the end they were Messangers, Jewish Men and great teachers.
I always find any denial of their birthrites to smack of anti-semitism and racism. Its not about being of the "chosen" people or God being racist. Its a simple tribal/political/racial fact that Jesus was a Jew. I don't believe God is a racist, but God has promised blessings to the progeny of Abraham and Isaac....he did this also with Ishmael. Recognizing these covenants is important because they are promises from the Lord to his people.
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honeto
Senior Member
Male
Islam
Joined: 20 March 2008
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2487
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Posted: 17 December 2008 at 10:08am |
Fiendship writes: "you will come to the conclusion that the OT and NT were written after the Revelation of the Qur'an. "
I agree with you on that but then with that conclusion, they (OT/NT) are of no authority to us, and we the Muslims should not (and we don't) base any of our argument on its contents other than only to show referances from them to counter a claim by those who believe it to be God's word, without alterations.
Hasan
Edited by honeto - 17 December 2008 at 10:10am
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Friendship
Senior Member
Joined: 24 August 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 884
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Posted: 16 December 2008 at 5:58am |
Assalamu alikum. I posted that : They initially called
themselves the children of Israel and Allah accepted. I think the name
'Jew' was stolen from the Qur'an as Muhammad called them with that name
in Madina
Nur Ilahi responded: Please clarify your statements above. And please give sources, because your post is very contradictory.
What are you trying to explain. I really cannot see head or tail.
My response: First of all recall the time death was approaching Jacob (Ya'qub) as revealed in Qur'an 2:133 and others. Abul Ala Maududi quoted Talmud quoting this verse. See his commentary chapter 2:133 vol.1 p113. Jacob was named 'Israel' and the 'One who wrestled with God and defeated God' according to their history. As they called themselves Children of Israel (a name not given to them by Allah) instead of Muslims, Allah called them with that name after the Apostleship of Muhammad. This was the case also with the Christians, from Qur'an chapter 5:14, "And from those who call themsleves christians" . Here Allah is reporting what they called themselves. Remember also the case of Zayd when Allah said We should call him with his father's name. Allah never called anyone with a name besides a 'Muslim'. You know that they were also addressed as Ahl-al-Kitab. I hope you know that there are many commentary and translation of the holy Qur'an each dealing on specific subject matter. Please try to possess such books. If you carefully study the OT and NT espeially also their commentary, you will come to the conclusion that the OT and NT were written after the Revelation of the Qur'an. Friendship
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Nur_Ilahi
Senior Member
Joined: 19 January 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1031
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Posted: 16 December 2008 at 4:49am |
Abraham, Moses, Jesus all worshipped The One True God.
They submitted to the law of The Creator. So they were Muslims.
They were neither Jews nor Christians.
If people say that the Jesus was a Jew, then Jesus was worshipping to a god that was racist. And of course that was impossible. And some people say that he was a Christian. That is also an impossibility. Nothing in the Bible says that Jesus was a Christian or that the religion of Jesus was Christianity. Nothing!
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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Nur_Ilahi
Senior Member
Joined: 19 January 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1031
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Posted: 16 December 2008 at 4:29am |
Friendship wrote:
Assalamu alaikum.
Angela posted: Therefore Jesus was a Jew. By blood, by religion and through adoption by tribe.
Response: Technically I am wright. I do not consider the apocryphal state of the NT. They initially called themselves the children of Israel and Allah accepted. I think the name 'Jew' was stolen from the Qur'an as Muhammad called them with that name in Madina. I do not think Ezra called them "Jews" since after compiling the Torah he dared called them so in defiance of Exodus 3:13-15. I met a lot of Jews who confirmed to me what you said. The Qur'an in reality told the Children of Israel what was their true position. They are Muslims. Friendship.
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Friendship,
Please clarify your statements above. And please give sources, because your post is very contradictory.
They initially called themselves the children of Israel and Allah accepted. I think the name 'Jew' was stolen from the Qur'an as Muhammad called them with that name in Madina
What are you trying to explain. I really cannot see head or tail.
Tks.
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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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honeto
Senior Member
Male
Islam
Joined: 20 March 2008
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2487
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Posted: 15 December 2008 at 2:10pm |
By his belief he was neither a Jew nor a Chrsitian, if he believed in One God and worshiped His Creator, and he was in submisson to God, then he was a Muslim.
Hasan
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Nazarene
Senior Member
Male
Joined: 05 September 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 298
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Posted: 14 December 2008 at 1:01pm |
from angela:
Jesus was a JEW. Only an anti-semtic crackpot would want to or need to make him anything else.
Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael,Jacob,were seminites not jews, JEWS{ Judea-Judean} DID NOT EXSIST WHEN GOD MADE HIS COVENENTS WITH THE HOUSE OF ABRAHAM. those covenents cover MANY , MANY PEOPLE!! even David and Solomon were not JEWS! { although they were "judean"}
the JEWISH rabbinical religious cult did not exsist till around 500-400 bce. after they left Babalon, hence the polution of pagen practices.
leland
Edited by Nazarene - 15 December 2008 at 5:22am
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love for all conquers all
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Nazarene
Senior Member
Male
Joined: 05 September 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 298
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Posted: 14 December 2008 at 7:23am |
Angela wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry...you're one of those...
My Aunt and Uncle were Nazerene's for a short while...we call them "Holy Rollers" back home. They eventually left... I don't need to say anymore.
I though I was engaging a Protestant. | i'm also joyfull you understand!!! there are differences between the same!
A jew to a nazerene, is a similitude of a catholic to a protestant or a shihite to a sufi.
peace and love to you as you futher your enlightenment.
leland
Edited by Nazarene - 14 December 2008 at 7:30am
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love for all conquers all
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