Leaving Islam Punishable by Death?... |
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SilverArrow
Starter Joined: 23 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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H3O,
Many thanks for your documented answers. This is what I needed in fact. I am not knowledgeable about Islam theology and before making any commitment to a new spiritual path I need to understand in what I am getting into. I have though some important questions: - If some of the Hadiths are contradicting the Qur'an spirit or even they may come from not entirely reliable sources why they are still part of the Hadith collection? - Shouldn't those questionable Hadith be analyzed and if proved can't be trusted to be taken out? - Another thing is: Why should we believe in some tradition, where is already the Qur'an there as the most important source of inspiration? Remember one important thing about the impact of the Christian Tradition on Christianity itself: - Some of these spiritual advices or personal conclusions have gone into the dogmas which where not really part of the initial faith as received. - The Islamic scholars should be aware of this potential danger. All the best, Alex |
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H3OO
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2008 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 215 |
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the word silence u used pretty much itself further clarifies that apostate is not punishable at the hands of humans. if God remains silent with regard a particular issue (a very important one), then what does that mean? what does his silence mean, are we going to wrongly assume that he is ordering us to murder the apostate, ofcourse not. it clearly means that He has not ordered us anything. its a thing of common sense His silence initself prove that he doesnt want us to do anything regarding such an issue. if he wanted humans to punish those, he would have clearly ordered us and not kept silent. God mentions 6 or 7 times atleast in quran that how much losers the apostate will be and how much a bigger sin it it is but he doesnt say anything regarding corporal punishment, initself makes it clear that he hasnt given humans any power regarding such case. it is only him only who will take care of such persons. being repetitive just to make it clear for example i murder an apostate, then on the day of judgment, God asks me why did i murdered the apostate when he did not ordered any physical punishment regarding apostate. what am i gonna say. from where am i gonna give the prove that he ordered us. Quran doesnt say anything, the validity of the haith is in serious question, infact im sure its not the words of prophet as proven above. so i guess this just puts this issue to bed that there is no corporal punishment for an apostate. continues... Edited by H3OO - 16 September 2008 at 3:16am |
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H3OO
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2008 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 215 |
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exteranl reasons? it seems u didnt read all of my posts bcz i ve provided no. of reasons regarding the hadith not being authentic, and not just the contradiction one. if u want another reason it is logic, common sense. remember islam and rationality go hand in hand. There is nothing in islam that goes against ones logic. if anything appears to be illogical reagrding any islamic teachings then that either that are not the words of islam or the person hasnt quite understood it. and i again say islam is 100% based on the principles of logic and common sense as to ur other question. ive already answered that: if hadith contradicts clearly with any verse of quran. then they are not the words of prophet (sa). or as stated before Another reliable method of investigating the credibility of a tradition is to study its internal evidence critically. If the contents of the tradition clash with the image of the Holy Prophet of Islam which has emerged from a study of his conduct and bearing throughout his life, then such a tradition would be rejected as a false attribution to the Holy Prophet[sa] or as being against the principles of logic and common sense. This is a pretty logical way to find about the authenticity of hadith. The source being reliable isnt enough to make an hadith authentic. Edited by H3OO - 16 September 2008 at 3:44am |
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H3OO
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2008 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 215 |
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Silver arrow
Sir all i can say is that unfortunately majority of muslims think that punishment of apostacy is death despite there being no valid authenticated logical prove as i mentioned in this thread. and similarly they think the same about this hadith too the Problem is these people are not willing to change their rigid views and have turned a blind eye to these facts which has been and is very much hurting islam . and regarding islamic teachings u willcome across no of issues and not just apostacy regarding which they've developed erroneuos beliefs so until these very people dont start using their common sense, think with an open mind, they will keep on wrongly interpret islamic teachings and unfortunately such hadith despite being invalid will remain part of islamic teachings. |
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Angel
Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Status: Offline Points: 6641 |
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Here is some more information and the consensus of the 4 schools. Below is an extensive research of mine I did. We all can put down what we believe personally and have opinions about it but the fact remains from my learning this is the law. No one talks about what Sharia laws mentions nor the 4 schools, so hopefully this can be so, now.
People also mention that no apostates are killed these days well that maybe so or not but it still DOES NOT change the sharia law. Yes its perhaps is up to the judge to give the punishment or not but it is there. Below is what I formed together some time ago:
Here I am going to talking soley on islam and its stance on apostacy - leaving islam. No other countries or religions, so lets keep the comparsions out ;-)
I have done a lot of research, been to (I hope) proper Islamic sites and resources. Well there is one or two things that seem to stand out, I�ve seen majority and some scholars says that the apostate should be put to death, quite clear actually, no complex issues with this. The people here at IC seem to bring some stuff from some scholars who say that the killing of apostates is not so. And other sources of the death penalty not so. Well now, which is it, we have some scholars who say yes and some who say no, but to me what should be followed is what the 4 schools of thought say, and what I have found is that all 4 with slightly differing views agree that the apostate should be put to death, even for women, since both genders are equal in punishments under sharia laws. And of course the qu�ran where the laws are derived from.
I know there will be those who will give that the laws need to be deeply understood but what laws or anything for that matter does apostasy need to be understood ? I believe it is a relatively straightforward subject, why does it need to be complicated and have so many laws to figure it out ?
So many apostates CAN'T talk, cannot live in a safe world with the threat of being killed hanging over their heads and looking over their shoulders in every turn that they do! They cannot talk about themselves or how they feel openly and do things practically in secret and be alone in the world.
Apostacy: Question #14231: Some of the rulings on apostasy and apostates
Some further reading:
The Hanafites: When the Muslim falls away from Islam -- may Allah forbid it! -- he is first asked to return. If he has doubts, he is to express them; one can then clear up his doubts, for it may be that he truly has questions with regard to the faith -- questions in need of explanation. By this it is possible to deal with his evil deed (sharr) through the best of two possibilities: death or the acceptance of Islam. However, it remains desirable to offer him the acceptance of Islam again, although this is not obligatory, because the message had already been offered him once.
The Shafi�ites: If a Muslim becomes apostate -- Allah forbid! -- the imam should grant him three days' grace; he is not to be killed before this period expires, for the apostasy of a Muslim from his faith often results from his confusion. Therefore a grace period is necessary, so that he can reflect, and that the truth can become clear to him again. We, the Shafi�ites, have determined that this time should consist of three days, whether he asks for it or not. But if he does not repent, he is to be killed by the sword immediately. This punishment cannot be evaded, because apostasy is the most atrocious and severe form of blasphemy, and it deserves the cruellest judgement, which invalidates all of a Muslim's previous deeds.
The Malikites: The imam should grant the apostate three days and nights -- beginning with the day on which his apostasy was committed, and not with the day of his unbelief or the day upon which the accusation was brought against him. The three days of confinement are to follow in succession, and the day on which the apostasy was proven should not be considered as part of the time limit, if it was preceded by dawn. If he repents after three days, he is to be released; but if he does not, he is to be killed on the third day, at sunset.
The Hanbalites: There are two opinions on this issue. Some believe that the apostate should be given a period for repentance consisting of three days, while others are of the opinion that he is to be granted no time for reconsideration but should only be offered Islam. If he accepts the offer, he is to be set free; if not, he is to be put to death immediately.
The Shafi�ites, Hanbalites and Malikites believe that the same treatment is for women to, it is Hanifites who are of the notion that women should only be imprisoned.
http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/
Taken from sunnipath.com:
�As to your question about the issues that bring about a ruling of apostasy, this is a long and risky discussion. Our jurisprudents have devoted entire sections of fiqh books to this subject and have outlined the various issues surrounding it. Some of them have even written entire books devoted to this topic, the most important of these being al-�Ilm bi Qawati� al-Islam (A Notice of the Revilers of Islam) by Shaykh al-Islam Ahmad ibn Hajar al-Haytami, the Imam of the Shafi�i School and mufti of
Let me share a few principles of what the scholars have said [on this issue]:
Apostasy is to revile Islam by word, deed, or intention. Whoever reviles Allah Ta�ala, His religion, or any of His prophets has committed unbelief. And whoever explicitly speaks a word of unbelief and believes what he has uttered has also committed unbelief, such as a person who says, �Allah is the third of three,� or, �The Messiah is the son of God.� Whoever commits an act of unbelief and believes in what he is doing becomes an unbeliever, such as someone who prostrates to an idol or throws the Quran in the trash. And if someone intends in his heart to revile Islam, he is an apostate, even if he does not say or do anything.
Amjad Rasheed�
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4986& CATE=2
�The prescribed punishment for a murtadd:
If a sane person who has reached puberty voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be punished.� In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.�
Some other resources.
http://forums.muslimvillage.net/lofiversion/index.php/t11707 -0.html
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4044
THE MUSLIM CONDUCT OF STATE - Dr. M. Hamidullah http://www.beautifulislam.net/articles/apostacy_blasphemy_is lam.htm#muslim
Short article Apostacy (Irtidad) in Islam |
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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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SilverArrow
Starter Joined: 23 May 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Angel, Many thanks for such extensive research on the issue. What I found strange about these decisions is this thing: 1. It is said in the Qur'an that religion IS NOT COMPULSORY. - My understanding is that it refers to accepting Islam - In the same token, those who remain in their religion without accepting Islam are not killed. 2. Once you enter Islam, if by live events and your own conscience you decide to leave Islam, without causing any harm to UMMA or the teachings in an open way that person is killed. My questions would be: - Why this discrepancy in the attitude and thinking regarding these two different situations? - If in first situation you are granted freedom not to choose Islam what logical and common sens base is for such decision to kill someone who leaves Islam? Bottom line is: - Such decision is not respecting the person's conscience and free will to decide something else. As long as these kind of decisions are not put in the real perspective, meaning the each person's freedom of will and conscience many people will go away from Islam or out of it... Overall, it seems to me that these decisions are reflecting the people mentality but not the real GOD thinking and attitude. Thanks a lot, Alex |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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That's one of the drawbacks of writing too much. People tend to miss your main point. Can you give me just one reason why that particular hadith might not be considered authentic? By "external" I mean a reason not based on the internal content, i.e., not based on the words of the hadith itself. My point is that if we need to rely on the content of a hadith to validate its authenticity, then how can we rely on its authenticity to validate its content? Isn't that a circular argument? |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Thanks for that, Angel. I normally avoid such long posts (as I implied to H3OO), but you have put together a very strong and well-documented case. It's interesting that popular opinion, as expressed by the members of Islamicity, is quite different than scholarly opinion. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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