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Nur_Ilahi View Drop Down
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Points: 1031 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nur_Ilahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 September 2008 at 5:34pm
Robin,
 
A God given book will be free from any alterations, contradictions, errors and should be pure and spiritual.
Instead the Bible have all these and the saddest and humiliating part is the pornographic verses that really contradicts the Purity of God AlMighty.
If these dirty verses that can rouse the animal self in a man, can be included in the bible, what other subtle words that be included by corrupted priests of yesteryears?
 
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
 
The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.  (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Nur_Ilahi View Drop Down
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Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Are there any prophets in Islam that made these same claims that Jesus made?

 
Sorry, please clarify.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2008 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

Originally posted by _ALI_ _ALI_ wrote:

Salam
I would also like to add that all the arguments given by muslims over here preassume that Bible is authentic, while we Muslims, along with many historians, first of all believe that Bible is unauthentic and corrupted.
 
The Bible says that no other book was to follow it which in effect removes the need for the Quran to serve God:-
 
Revelation 22:18-19
"I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.
 
 
The Bible also say it has all the infomation humans need to serve God faithfuly:-
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
 
Thus nothing more than the Bible is needed.
 
Robin,
just like your quote from Revelation states, if any one adds from their own to what God has revelaed God will punish him, as he not only misleads himself but others as well, knowingly.
Many Bible scholars state that Bible has went through many rewritings, additions and substrations. If we don't take their word, and do our own study, we do find problems and contradictions in the Bible that prove toward its transformation from word of God to word of man.
One thing is clear, man contradicts, God does not. The Bible contradicts and that proves that its a man edited book. 
Now that does not mean that  the Bible was always that way. At once it must have been pure word of God when God sent those scriptures to the prophets.
It will be suicidal to knowingly cover up the facts if one believe in accountability, and as Muslims we do.
God loves us and has promised us to hold us accountable only after He has sent us the Guidance.
The choice is ours, once we know what's the truth and what is not.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 13 September 2008 at 6:59pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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believer View Drop Down
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Did Mohammad, Moses, Abraham any prophet ever say abut himself the type of things Jesus said about himself?
 
John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 
Al-Haqq The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.
Ar-Rasheed The Guide to the Right Path, The One who guides.
 
Revelation 22
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
 
Al-'Awwal The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.
Al-'Akhir The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.
 
John 5
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Al-Hakam The Judge, He is the Ruler and His judgment is His Word.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2008 at 10:17am
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Did Mohammad, Moses, Abraham any prophet ever say abut himself the type of things Jesus said about himself?
 
John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 
Al-Haqq The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.
Ar-Rasheed The Guide to the Right Path, The One who guides.
 
Revelation 22
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
 
Al-'Awwal The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.
Al-'Akhir The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.
 
John 5
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Al-Hakam The Judge, He is the Ruler and His judgment is His Word.

 
believer,
sorry to say but you have poor memory as an individual and/ or poor coordination as a group. All of the above points of yours have been discussed and answered in various threads before.
 
No doubt that Jesus (pbuh) was a blessing from God Almighty for those upon whom he was appointed as the messanger, as a true guiding light.
 
Unfortunately what we learn about him through the Bible is  of contradictory nature and not very reliable, where he is a humble servant of God at one place, while confusingly enough god in the next.
 
It is only through the Final Testament (the Quran) that we learn about who Jesus (pbuh) really was, what was his position and purpose?  I don't find anyting else that can prove more realiable and authentic than that. 
 
By the way your quote from Revelations 22 , "the first and the last" suggest a begining, the first and and end, the last.  That is different than Islamic understanding of : No begining and no End.
 
And your quote:
John 5
22......... He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
 
I have two things to say about this quote:
a) this can be true for all of God's prophets when they were sent to their people. For example when Noah warned his people with the message from God, those who did not listen and honor Noah did not honor God and thus were punished. As now those who do not honor God's prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are not honoring God, to their own loss.
 
 
b) I find an interesting statement associated to the same person (Jesus pbuh) in the same book, let us see:
 
Matthew 12:32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man (Jesus) will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
 
This quote clearly shows that if (according to the Bible) someone does not honor Jesus, still is honored with forgiveness. That is in contrast to your quote of John 5.
 
Also remember that Jesus was given all what he had by God, even the ability to judgement between right and wrong as all of God's prophets were given that Judgement.  Jesus is quoted here to say:
John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but Him who sent me.
Also note here Jesus saying, " but (to please) Him who sent me!"
Do we need an explaination of this saying? let me know.
 
Hasan
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Points: 1397 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2008 at 5:45am
You miss the message honeto-
 
A person not honoring Jesus will be forgiven even though he is also not honoring the Father.
 
1 Timothy 1
13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
 
Paul did not understand who Jesus was, or what His teachings were about. 
 
A sin against the Holy Spirit can not be forgiven, this sin is done knowingly and with malice.  Only the most evil of man would deny the Holy Spirit once they were touched by the Holy Spirit.
 
Have any other prophets claimed these attributes?
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Have any other prophets claimed these attributes?
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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_ALI_ View Drop Down
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Salam
Have any other prophets claimed these attributes?
Like I said, Jesus claimed to be all that according to the Bible. You are assuming that Bible is authentic, when Muslims, along with many historians consider Bible to be unauthentic. Still, even if we say that Bible is not corrupted, yet, Moses has been given an even greater label by God according to the Bible. In Exodus 7:1, Moses is called god. Now God never called Jesus god. So is Moses the 4th member of trinity? Are we suppose to worship him? I am sure you will disagree and argue that if Moses is called god, that does not make him God. It only makes him a representative of God. Likewise (even though Jesus is never called god by his so called father, still) if Jesus is given great attributes, that does not make him god. Furthermore
i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "�I cast out devils by the Spirit of God�."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "�I with the finger of God cast out devils�."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]

What kind of a god says I can do nothing?

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]
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