the sahaaba

My answers are in Brown

Andalus wrote: asda wrote: This is a strawman and a willfull distortion of the topic. Your claim is not a "strong point" of Sunnis which you are trying to distort. thats a general fact... � � What I find very telling about you is that are simply regurgitating (pasting) Shia diatribe, because in this entire reply from you, all you have done is "repeat" yourself, as if repeating various fallacies will some how make them true. � what do u want....from the start of the topic u want me to start talking against the belivs of the sunnis..and be rude...and lead this discussion to a sensless debate...well thats a general fact...which is accepted by shias and sunnis....well actually my 1st post is an intro to the topic....it does not refute any claims to the full...its just an expression of a view point...and thus if someone does not accept this...will debate...isnt it simple...thus i dont need to prove the sunni point...u have baseless claims...u knw..its common sense.. If it is a "general fact", then show that the general applies to particulars. You cannot assert your way through a discussion. If you will not back up your claims, then I will close this thread. It is that simple. � � the sahaaba had made major mistakes...and i have already shown u by mentioning the Doughter of the Prophet (a.s)'s views on then...fidak is one of the points where the sahaaba do come under criticism...if u think otherwise...then i pity u.... � � Another strawman, for thinking that the companions were divine would be shirk. Hardly a "strong point" from Muslims. As far as being sent by Allah, I would love to know just how you have ascertained the mind of Allah and His relationship with mankind. I am guessing you do not have any real answers to my ojections and your points were just part of your hyporbole and over editorializing of the topic. if the sahaaba dint exist...wud prophet muhammad (a.s)'s mission had failed??u knw the answer.. � � � "u knw"..."cuz"..????? I am not one of your "texting buddies" in class.��Appearance goes a long way, and you might be taken much more serious if you used real words. � Its my wish...i am not giving an english exam/test....untill and unless u understand my point..its right and done from me....and for a fact...y cant we talk like gud friends....or u r one of those who r doing their best to create disunity among the ummah??? Now, about your reply, once again you did not respond to what I stated. In fact, your reply is completely irrelevant. You made a claim, and I am calling you on it. You now have comitted a fallacy of "irrelevancy". � � � 1) Show that Muslims worship the sahaba? in urdu we say, akalmand ko ishaaraa kafee hai....that was written not in the real sense...it had a hidden meaning..where the point is being made that sunnis think all the sahaaba are on "HAQ"...while the truth is in contrast.. 2) Show how you are able to ascertain whether or not some was/or was not sent by God? � i hav already answered dat.. Thats quite a sweeping generalization. The topic of the companions is not as simplistic, nor is the view of Muslims so simplistic of the topic. A certain amount of adhab is used when approaching any of them, which does not mean that adhab for all is equivalent to worshiping for a few, many, most, or any. well its not genralized???then we stand at the same point...cuz above i have been debating about the fact that all companions in "general" was not on haq... � � Not only is your texting style usage of words annoying, but you are unable to put out a coherent response. Are you now asking me if your claim is true? Are you telling me it is true? If it is a "general fact", then it should not be difficult for you to establish it here and now beyond your rediculous assertions.�You seem to know more about my faith then I do. Astounding! � i hav clearly shown the displeasure of ahlel bayt (a.s) with the 1st rashidite caliph...and that is enough to establish the fact about the sahaaba they were against...but still u hav denied...thats astonishing to me as well.. You are able to ascertain which companions were not of God and which were? Shi'ites never seem to amaze me. Please, show us the methodology you use to determine which companion was not of God and which was? As of now, you are trying to use unargued assertions to try and smear whoever you like. If you are unable to begin providing a criteria, a case, an example, that begins to show your claim of a "general fact", then this thread is closed. � what do u mean by companions "of god" just because the discussion is on...that does not mean i have not proven anything...i hav already raised some question..which hav not been answered....and u threaten me to close the thread....well well... � � Adhab and piety are not the same things. Instead of making claims which such gaping generalizations, why not clarify your stance. wat clarification do u need...plz clarify... � � The same clarification I have been asking for from the beginning that you are now avoiding, in part because you are limited to copying and pasting Shia polemics, but you are unable to get into the "nitty gritty" of the discussion. Your attempt to play obtuse is entertaining. � i hav clarified my stance..from the very 1st post...we cant say that all the ppl with the prophet (a.s) were truthful companions....and surly some were...who were with the truth and had to bear the difficulties due to their staunch faith... � And you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example. You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".[/QIAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example. You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".UPTAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example. You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established" well look at the next aayah.. � � � I do not need you to give me a verse from the Quran along with your official SHi'ite exegesis of the passage. You are full of assertions, what we need is for you to establish your first, basic claims. � feel free to prove ure point!!!! � � Another complex question (a fallacy), please establish that every person that came in contact with the prophet is a saint, from the position of Muslims. The rest of your question is perplexing. Please clarify. not every person...but as u say...all the sahaaba has the "as-sakinah"... � � � About your claim, please establish this belief we have. Clarify (not a quote from your websites or another assertion). � See post number 3 of this thread from a sunni bro....this was his claim.. � � � how are you able to read God's mind to know who He likes or does not like? now u r making it complex...well the quran is the best way know Allah (s.w.t)...tho he is above our understanding...but we can upto a certain level. � It is not a complex question. There are no unargued claims buried in the premise of the question. It is not "complex". It is a a valid question pertaining to your claims. � i think this part of the discussion is over..as it has been answered � This begs the question: So what? How does this prove your sect's basic claims? I will answer for you: It does not without some manipulation and supposition. the aayah is just an example of the point made above it...and u have taken it seperately.. � � What point was that? You have made unargued assertions, and now you want to use a verse from the Quran and then handwave your interpretation? Willful distortions do not count as valid, or even reasonable claims.

   


if u disagree...please feel free to prove ure claims...

Andalus wrote: asda wrote: Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325: Narrated 'Aisha: (mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html are these the best of believers??? or....a part of the believers were staunch in their aqeedah???? Keep in mind that this thread has not stayed on topic. You have used this as an opportunity to dump Shia polemics. It is unreasonable to expect Muslims to jump and reply to every red herring you throw out. It no longer becomes a discussion, and it is simply you launching pasted claim from a shia polemical source. I am very close to closing this thread. If you want to have a seperate discussion about Fatima, or who the leaders are supposed to be, then open seperate threads. I will respond briefly to this one incident you have pasted. well the topic as u knw is sahaaba...and we r looking at the topic from their varios acts...u knw as well that the sahaaba(as u claim) do come under the microscope for their role in fidak....and due to this it has a very big relevance to the topic... infact minuteman did start discussing "khilafa and imamat" on this thread...and i did discuss with him on going on another thread to discuss that...which he ignored in his reply....so u better threaten him of closing down the thread...and not me....cuz i have shown keenness to discuss the acts of the sahaaba in this topic... Before I begin, I suspect that the website you are going to has an author who is in great need of a basic course in critical thinking. And this will become evident as we read on. ya i do CnP the hadeeth and Quranic Aayah...but that does not mean my post on whole is CnP....infact i do that from sunni sites as well...to avoid mistakes... Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325: Narrated 'Aisha: (mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle. 1) Your claim makes the assertion (unproven) that she asked for the property BECAUSE it was ever given to her. 2) This is a Shia distortion, as there are no books authored by the Ahl Assunat who have stated that the property did indeed belong to her, or was given to her. 3) There are no Islamic books that have established that the property was ever given to her, or that she asked for it because it was given to her. she asked fidak as her share of inheiritence.....and something she was sure of the fact that it was her right!!!!! and that is enough to deduce the fact that the decision of the caliph was incorrect...just keeping in mind what the Prophet (a.s) had said about her high status....well it is odd that u have given soooo much importance even a small hint of praise of sahaaba....but u keep aside the facts which has clearly been stated by the Prophet (a.s) In fact, there are strong ahadith that establish the order concerning the prophet's statement about the relationship between a prophet, his inheritance, and his family. But this does not concern you, as Shi'ites only pick out the hadith that they can use and ignore everything else. bismillah...go ahead....whos stopping u from disclosing knowledge.. in the hadith u hav quoted...even if i accept them as sahih...the Prophet (a.s) clearly mentions all of these merits for the companions...and not for those who went astray...who were the tru companions wen the prophet (a.s) was alive or after he died.... wsalaam What methodology do you use to accept or reject our hadith? You see, it matters not what hadith we give you, since you are under no obligation to believe them. Your only method so far is that the hadith must agree with the absurd supposition of your sect. Such a methodology, my friend, is completely weak and unfounded and denies credebility to your claims.

i hav just given that sentence with a big "IF"....."if" u dint read that...its the way to discuss...infact i hav already given reasons to reject that hadith....infact if i start giving out hadith from the same books the br has reffered to...u will reject them as well..just because it does not fit ure faith...or u will give some logical reason...or if the hadith is totally out of context then u may use quran as well..

infact i would invite u to debate me not to prove anything...but to share knowledge...and if for example, i dont hav an answer to a question i will go to a scholar and ask him the same thing hoping to find a logical answer...and if it happens with u...i advice u to do the same....but i hav noticed that my questions hav not been replied and ignored to the most...well i hav not adressed them over and over again hoping that the person on the other end is doing some research on it...but the way i see the posts..thats not the fact....

i would also like everybody on this forum to treat each other with respect...see, no one will leave ones aqeedah by chatting on the internet...but the positive about such forums is that we all can mingle and discuss and learn from each other...and research on the things we dont knw....the best thing about these forums is that we can atleast try to clarify our aqeedah to the other...i am pointing out about the varios myths ppl have about the shia...which are surly untrue....one of them have been discussed (recently about Quran and Imam Ali (a.s))...insallah more facts will be cleared in future...

Edited by asda - 12 September 2008 at 3:35pm

Edited by Andalus - 11 September 2008 at 10:49pm

Quran 48:18

asda, thanks for your reply. It has been noticed hat even you may not have been harsh but you have one way traffic. Youhave things of your own choice and you will reject the presentations of others. So how can the truth be decided. I am sure that you and your entire group is wrong. The reason being hatred of the very senior members of the Ummah.

well give me ONE sentence from u which i hav denied without proof and reasoning..if there is then inshallah i will sort it out....
if the ppl u call "senior members of the ummah" so gud...then y did the Prophet (a.s)'s own doughter never spoke with them till she died??u knw the status of bibi Fatima Az-Zahraa (s.a)!!!!how can anybody hurt her and think that the Prophet (a.s) will be happy with him...if anybody hurts ure daughter (god forbid!!) will u ever like that person??
and if the Prophet (a.s) is not happy with such a person...then how can u even think they are worthy of praise??

Now I am calling you wrong. I hope it is not abuse.

that is nothing but a stubborn attitude u have....

If I am the ruler of some one then Ali is the ruler of that one. O, Allah, you also be the ruler of that one who is the ruler of Ali and you also be the enemy of the one who is the enemy of Ali.

well the "WAAALI" (and not mawla...i hope u can read arabic) is there a connection between the that word with "MAWLA" and "AWLA"????...

chalo u want 2 way traffic....well even if i accept ure translation as being friend...then y wud the prophet (a.s) would give so much importance to this and deliver a whole speach due to the fact that a few ppl disliked Imam Ali (a.s)....he would hav just gone and tole them that Imam Ali (a.s) is with "HAQ"...and y did the prophet (a.s) mention the fact that he is gonna die soon..and thirdly y would this event take place:

خرجنا مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حتى نزلنا غدير خم بعث مناديا ينادي فلما اجتمعنا قال : ألست أولى بكم من أنفسكم ؟ ‏قلنا : بلى يارسول الله ، قال : ألست أولى بكم من امهاتكم ؟ قلنا : بلى يا رسول الله ، قال : ألست أولى بكم من آبائكم ؟ قلنا : ‏بلى يا رسول الله ، قال : ألست ؟ ألست ؟ ألست ؟ قلنا: بلى يارسول الله ، قال : من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه ( 1 ) أللهم وال من ‏والاه ، وعاد من عاداه ، فقال عمر بن الخطاب : هنيئا لك يابن ابي طالب أصبحت اليوم ولي كل مؤمن‎

Traveling with the Messenger of Allah [s], we stopped at the pond of Khumm and the Prophet [s] sent someone to call upon people to gather. When we came together he said: �Do I not have more right with you than your own selves?� We said: �Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!� He continued: �Do I not have more right with you than your mothers?� We said: �Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!� He continued: �Do I not have more right with you than your fathers?� We replied: �Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!� He kept asking �Do I not have�, and we kept answering �Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!� He concluded: �To whoever I am his master, �Ali is his master. O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him.� 'Umar b. al-Khattab said: �Congratulations O Ibn Abi Talib, today you have become the master(MAWLA) of every believer.�

Al-Bidayah wa'l-Nihayah fi al-Ta'rikh   
Cairo: Matba`at al-Sa`adah (14 vols), 1932- vol. 7, p. 349    
Mishkat al-Masabih   
Damascus: al-Maktab al-islami (3 vols), 1961-62 vol. 3, p. 246    
Al-Musannaf   
Karachi: Idara al-Qur'an wa al-`ulum al-Islamiyyah (15 vols in 16 parts), 1987 CE vol. 12, p. 78
Ta'rikh Baghdad   
Beirut: Dar al-kutub al-`arabi (18 vols), n.d. vol. 8, p. 290    
and this tridation is available in more books...


now if ure translation is correct then adding friend as mawla does not make sense.....i mean...how many times u hav been congratulated on making Friends.....:NONE....isnt it....


the waali means friend as it gets clear in the other part of the sentence...

I shall look forward to the advice of Seeks to proceed further in this matter.

i again would like to remind u that i dint force u to debate me....u came at ure own will......infact many sunni scholars do their best to keep the two parties i.e shia and sunnis away from each other...for facts known to them only...i hardly know a sunni to shia convert who has not been scolded by a sunni scholar(in his sunni days) for being in contact with the shias...


infact, more than making each other convert.....we should more focus on how to bring peace within the two groups to have unity among muslims.....and discussing these matters do help know each other.....while it is in instincts of a human to accept the truth.....