Quran alone

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islamispeace View Drop Down

Senior Member
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Joined: 01 November 2005
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Points: 2187

Topic: Quran alone
Posted: 17 August 2007 at 7:35pm

"I am confused about the camel-urine hadith too. How could the prophet recommend the drinking of camel�s urine, considering the importance that the Koran gives to hygiene?

Also Muhammad (PBUH) was a mercy to mankind; why will he militate the people of the tribe? ; The Shepard was killed; so the right thing would have been killing the murderer.

Is This hadith true? or its fabricated? whats the wisdom behind it ?"

Yes, it is a true hadith. Some people believe that just because the Prophet advised those people to drink milk mixed with camel urine, it was a "medically" or "hygienically" incorrect, and therefore, the hadith must be fabricated. Undoubtedly, these people are not aware that animal urine is used in making medicines. An example is Premarin (which is an acronym for Pregnant Mare's Urine), a drug which has been and continues to be prescribed by many doctors to treat menopausal disorders, to prevent osteoporosis, among other things. Obviously, animal urine is used in the production of medicine. Why then is it so hard to accept that the Prophet could have advised camel urine in milk to treat a mild sickness?

As for the punishment of the murderers, what is the problem? Those people murdered the shepherd and stole his herd! They were captured and executed. Is not their punishment mentioned in the Quran?

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (Surah al-Maeda:33-34)

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

ak_m_f

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Location: Canada
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Points: 3272

Posted: 17 August 2007 at 9:34am

Noah wrote:

"A group from the Ureyneh and Uqayleh tribes came to the prophet and the prophet advised them to drink urine of camels. Later on, when they killed the prophet's shepherd, the prophet seized them, gouged out their eyes, cut their hands and legs, and left them thirsty in the desert" (Bukhary 56/152, Hanbel 3/107,163).

I am confused about the camel-urine hadith too. How could the prophet recommend the drinking of camel�s urine, considering the importance that the Koran gives to hygiene?

Also Muhammad (PBUH) was a mercy to mankind; why will he militate the people of the tribe? ; The Shepard was killed; so the right thing would have been killing the murderer.

Is This hadith true? or its fabricated? whats the wisdom behind it ?

AhmadJoyia View Drop Down

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Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647

Posted: 10 October 2005 at 11:39am

Oh, what happened to the bro SarkarAnwar, though he was quite emphatically presenting his arguments. Nevertheless, bro Noah has yet to convince as how authenticity of Quran be looked upon from outside the Quran and not from within it, if we don't care for the Islamic history through the science of Hadith collection? Not only this, there are so many other numerous reasons to adopt the authentic sunnah, that it is overwhelmingly clear that indeed sunnah of Prophet Mohammad can't be ignored, even though we have perfect Quran as it was revealed on Prophet Mohammad. One such reason is the need to establish a Muslim Society. Though individually my brother Noah's argument could get away with the Quran only, but on the community level as a whole functioning society, as Prophet Mohammad himself had alluded, that if the issue is not found from the Quran, the next best thing to adopt is the authentic sunnah. Hence, guidance on the collective issues, such as regulation of distribution of zakat, congregation of Salaat ul Jumma, or Salaat ul Jinaza, or many other acts of pity and humbleness etc, can only be taken through the authentic sunnah. It doesn't reduce Quran to any level below, nor it freezes it in the temporal dimension, but upholds its principles to their best possible implementation through sunnah.

Noah

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Joined: 25 June 2005
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Points: 199

Posted: 21 August 2005 at 1:44am

wa aleykum salam wr wb

I pray the same way most muslims pray. you see, there is nothing wrong with using the kind of prayer associated with your culture. its the prayer, the establishing of link to God that is important, and that its at certain times, as outlined in Quran. I would never translate sol'aat into ritual prayer, because it isnt. Its establishing link/connection/contact. The ritual itself is not important. Besides there are several clue in Quran as how others did THEIR ritual, in the storys of the prophets. In Abrahams case we can learn that he stood up in the beginning of his sol'aat. we learn that another prophet was sitting on his knees in sol'aat when people spoke to him, and asked if his sol'aat prevents them from using their money a they please. Why would they ask him if his sol'aat forbids them to spend their money, if sol'aat is ritual prayer?
So in short, naturally im using the prayer im familar with, as would anyone, and as did the arabs at the time of mohammad. bowing and prostrating was in no way unique to the moslems, they just refused to do it to stones and carvings.

Think about it, isnt it funny that something God puts this much emphasis on isnt better explained in his "book that has ALL details" "contains all things" etc.. If it isnt because we have to look at purpose of the action (use reason), and that the purpose is what is important, not the shape of it, and then as Islam is for all mankind, all times, and all cultures. People can take this perfect system and implement into their own, without converting to arabs. Islam is genious, its a shame that people insist on limiting it like it is being done.

Faste is to be in the schorching month, and as the Quran clearly states that the year is a full solar/lunar 365 day year, i think we are doing it wrong atm. And at the wrong time. However. Islam is about unity, so i fast with all my sunni and shiah freinds when the normal ramadan is there. I would however argue that it should be somewhere in june, where its the hottest. or schorching ,sp i usually take some 10 days in a row there aswell...Again we need to see the puporse of what we are doing, and not just turn things into numb minded rituals.

Calculate my zakat. we dont have the same understanding of what zakat is i think. Somewhere down the line zadaquat was converted into meaning zakat in the minds of people. Zakat is purifying, and the word is used very broad in Quran. How can i calculate purifying? I can however do as Quran tells me, and give out of what i have in excess, or what i do not NEED myself. its not hard at all. If i walk down the street and someone stops me and asks for food, and i know that i have more money than i need, i would wrong my soul by not giving him food. I have implementet this thinking into my life, and at the end of the day, im giving out way more than 2.5% on a yearly basis. However, i never miss the money, as they where in excess anyway.
This way i know what the money is used for, and that they are used as intended, not to finance military or rogue groups.

Salaam

Edited by Noah

Alwardah

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Location: South Africa
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Points: 980

Posted: 20 August 2005 at 1:19pm

As Salamu Alaikum

Just curious Noah, how do you pray, and fast and calculate your Zakat etc.

Take care

Salams

�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)

Noah

Senior Member

Joined: 25 June 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 199

Posted: 20 August 2005 at 10:51am

Your question is unclear to me. Please construct the question properly with words separated from each other where applicable.

Your utterance of lies against Allah and His Book about the number of daily prayers does no way constitute that I am making any assumption here! Apart from the Sunnah of our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the Holy Quran also tells us the number of times the muslims need to perform As-salat (Iqamat-as-Salat)! I will leave it for you to find it out from the Holy Quran.

If you want to tell me that im wrong, show me that im wrong. Where does the Quran say how many times we have to pray according to you?

You have quoted Verses 11:115 & 17:79 to support your lies in regard to the number of daily obligatory prayers. Here are the interpreted meanings of those two Verses:

yes it was an error on my behalf ,the verse is ofcourse 11:114 i just remembered the wrong number

Y.Ali And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):
R.Khalifa You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.
Pickthal Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill-deeds. This is reminder for the mindful.
Shakir And keep up prayer in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful.
Literal And keep up the prayers to (the) ends/edges (of) the daytime (to) parts from the night from the night; that the goodnesses wipe off/eliminate the sins/crimes, that (is) a remembrance/reminder to the praising/glorifying .

there you go.

17:79. And in some parts of the night (also) offer the Sal�t (prayer) with it (i.e. recite the Qur'an in the prayer), as an additional prayer (Tahajjud optional prayer Naw�fil) for you (O Muhammad SAW). It may be that your Lord will raise you to Maq�man Mahm�da (a station of praise and glory, i.e. the highest degree in Paradise!).

I have no idea what the above is, but here's some takes without all the insertions.

Y.Ali And pray in the small watches of the morning: (it would be) an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee: soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory!
R.Khalifa During the night, you shall meditate for extra credit, that your Lord may raise you to an honorable rank.
Pickthal And some part of the night awake for it, a largess for thee. It may be that thy Lord will raise thee to a praised estate.
Shakir And during a part of the night, pray Tahajjud beyond what is incumbent on you; maybe your Lord will raise you to a position of great glory.
Literal And from the night so wake up and pray with it, done above the call of duty for you, maybe/perhaps that (E) your Lord sends/resurrects you a praised/thanked position/residence .

here are some more translations http://www.studyquran.co.uk/

Where the above Verses tell you to pray 3 times daily?

take a good look at them again.

Your quoted Verse 11:115 does not say anything about prayers and its fixed hours! Do not attempt to duck the question. Show proper references from the Holy Quran. Explain what is the limit of the fixed time for every salat!.

look up

Where did Allah tell you that if there was any important in regard to the number of units He would have stated it in the Holy Quran? Bring your evidence.

thats not how it works. YOU are the one who claim that the number of units are in fact important. Where in his book does God tell you that they are important. state your evidence.

Where did Allah tell you to use your �God given head� to determine that the numbers of repetitions are unimportant? Where did Allah tell you to use your �God given head� to determine the manners of the prescribed prayers? Show the evidence from the Holy Quran.

actually Allah make itperfectly clear that we should use our common sense:

Y.Ali Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).
R.Khalifa We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
Pickthal Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.
Shakir And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.
Literal And We had created/seeded to Hell many from the Jinns , and the human/mankind, for them (are) hearts/minds they do not understand/learn with it, and for them (are) eyes/sights they do not see/look/understand with it, and for them (are) ears they do not hear/listen with it, those are as the camels/livestock, but they are more misguided, those are the ignoring/neglecting .

Y.Ali And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
R.Khalifa You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Pickthal (O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these it will be asked.
Shakir And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.
Literal And do not follow the tracks/accuse of evil deeds what knowledge is not for you with it (you have no knowledge of), that the hearing/listening, and the eye sight/knowledge, and the heart , all (of) those are/were about it questioned.

isnt it pretty obvious that we are to use our common sense, or face the consequences?

Where does Allah tell you that �the uttering should be what is actually on your mind�?

where does Allah in his book tell you to parrot the first verse of his own work back to him?

Did He reveal to you a separate Book or did He give you Al-Hikmah? Do not lie against Allah and His religion!

im not the one with a second book bro. I follow THE book, and no other books, like bukharis books, or muslims books, or maliks books. I follow none of those, so there is great irony in you saying this to me.

Did not Allah inform us in the following Verse that He had perfected His Religion during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him)?

5:3. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Isl�m as your religion.

This statement of the Most Glorious means that everything that a muslim needs in regard to his living by Islam has been perfected during the time of Prophet Muhammd (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him). It does not mean that you can utter whatever trashes you have accumulated in your heart in regard to the practices of Islam!

Where is it that im doing that by quotiNg from the Quran and living accordingly to what it said? I will be happy to show you every single verse in the Quran that shows that Mohammad was only to deliver the Quran, and judge by it. Nothing else.

Where did Allah ask you to say as such in your bowing & prostration during salat prayer? Bring evidence if you are truthful!

"Rabbi inn salamtu nafsin, wa aslamtu ma'a Sulaimaana, lillaahi rabbiul aalameen" which means, "... Oh my Lord, indeed I have wronged my soul. I SUBMIT MYSELF ALONG WITH SOLOMON, TO GOD THE LORD OF THE WORLDS" Sura, 27:44.

Where is in the Al-Quran Allah detailed the manner of the prescribed prayers? Bring evidence!

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat.htm

I see now you are referring to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as the one beside Allah who taught you the manner of prayers!

indeed he deliveres the Quran alhamdulilah

Al-Quran does not tell you the detailed manner of prayers.

then you should try and read it again :)

Then how do you claim that   Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also taught you the manner of prayer since you do not believe in Sunnah & Ahadith?

Because what he came with was the Quran. what Bukhari, and muslim, and malik etc came with, was sunnah and hadith.

You can think whatever nonsense you want to think! My question was very clear as I have only asked you about Zakat but not Sadaqa. Now, because you cannot answer straight you are resorting to confuse the issue!

Moreover, you are translating Verse 2:219 wrongly to suit your line of thinking! There is no mention of either Sadaqa or Zakat in that Verse. Here is the transliteration of Verse 2:219.

2:219. Yas-aloonaka AAani alkhamri waalmaysiri qul feehima ithmun kabeerun wamanafiAAu lilnnasi wa-ithmuhuma akbaru min nafAAihima wayas-aloonaka matha yunfiqoona quli alAAafwa kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati laAAallakum tatafakkaroona.

Here is one of the much used translations of Verse 2:219 (Hilali & Muhshin Khan). Meaning of Yusuf Ali, Pickthall & Shakir Translations is the same as Hilali & Muhshin Khan.

2:219. They ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: "That which is beyond your needs." Thus All�h makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought."

How this Verse relate to Zakat or Sadaqa?

try and read your own translation, how obvious can it get when you look at the context of the whole surah.

By Allah's Mercy, I am familiar with your type of people who distort meaning of the Quran to justify their lies. Anyway, the �Zakat� that I asked you about has been mentioned in many Verses of the Holy Quran. Here are two of them:

2:277. Truly those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5:55. Verily, your Wali (Protector or Helper) is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, - those who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer).

Now, tell me how do you determine the amount of Zakat to be paid (keep in mind that Islam has been perfected).

the question has been answered full length here

What I meant by the rituals is the manner of performing the Hajj. I am not talking here about the purpose of Hajj.

If you do not understand the purpose of the hajj the rest of the question is pretty much invalid.

I am talking about how you perform Hajj. So do not mix up! Who taught you as to what to do during the Hajj? Surely, there are many rituals which have been described in the Holy Quran (find the Verses by yourself)

no thats not how it works, you have a point to make, make it by showing evidence.

Judging from your response, I find you are a much more ignorant individual then what I thought about you initially! Where in the Holy Quran Allah tells you that mankind to gather there in "peaceful debate"? Bring eveidence!

�So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God�s name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor. Then let them complete their duties and fulfill their vows, and let them partake at the ancient sanctuary.� (Quran 22:28-29)

Here are the three reasons people would gather:

- To be made aware of the system established by God for the people.

- To witness benefits for themselves.

- To recall God�s name over the animal livestock.

The first objective of making �Pilgrimage� is to share with all mankind the system of laws and government and teachings that God has decreed to us through the Prophets

Your statement �So the question is rather WHY do you perform rituals at hajj� is a proof that you have no idea about what the Holy Quran says in regard to performing Hajj!

well why dont you show it to me then? :)

By the way, what do you understand by the word Manasik?

rites



by saying that �actually that is not what we learn at all� & �you are mixing up Gods words with Bukharis�. The following Verses are adequate to refute your lies:
4:157. And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]:

So , now we know for a fact that they didnt kill him. and that God made an illusion appear to them.

4:158. But All�h raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And All�h is Ever All�Powerful, All�Wis

This happens to everybody. where did this "(with his body and soul)" come from?

Secondly, you have not only quoted the references of the Verses wrongly (should be 3:46 & 5:110) but also you have resorted to lies in the translation of the Verses. Lets look at the correct meanings of Verses 3:46 & 5:110:

3:46. "He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous."

5:110. (Remember) when All�h will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with R�h�ul�Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity;�

Now lets look at some words in Verse 3:110. In your translation you have translated the words �biroohi alqudusi� as the �Holy Spirit�! What a liar!! Where on earth you found the meanings of these words as such?

it has been answered here in detail

You are again lying! Show evidence from the Holy Quran that Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) died here!

it has been answered here in detail

Surely, it would be odd for the ignorant people like you! If you had the understanding of the Holy Quran you would have known that the Messengers whom Allah has chosen are given the information of the unseen as much as He likes! Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):


72:26. "(He Alone) the All-Knower of the Gha'ib (unseen), and He reveals to none His Gha'ib (unseen)."[

72:27. Except to a Messenger (from mankind) whom He has chosen (He informs him of unseen as much as He likes), and then He makes a band of watching guards (angels) to march before him and behind him.

72:28. [He (All�h) protects them (the Messengers)], till He sees that they (the Messengers) have conveyed the Messages of their Lord (All�h). And He (All�h) surrounds all that which is with them, and He (All�h) keeps count of all things (i.e. He knows the exact number of everything).

Apart from the above Verses, we learn from the following Verse that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had the knowledge of unseen as much as Allah liked him to have it. Otherwise, the statement �he (Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) withholds not a knowledge of the unseen� will have no meaning. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

81:24. And he (Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) withholds not a knowledge of the unseen.

you are missing my point. but it has been asnwered here allready

Of course there are no confusions in Islam. It is only people like you who are confused! Well, you have my response above where I have quoted the relevant Verses!

but mostly you have told me to go look them up myself. thanks for the help borther. altso, look at my response

have proven that you are a heretic who wrongly translates the Holy Quran.

no you have proven that YOU have an oppinion, wich is good, i respect that.

I have also proven your disbelief and hypocrisy. You disbelieved in Allah�s revelation in many of your statements as I have proved with appropriate Verses.

Where is it that you have proven that?

Your hypocrisy has been exposed. You say you believe but in reality you do not believe!

Could you show where in the Quran yo uhave been given authority, to tell what is in my heart?

Listen Noah, I know you are a big liar and you have persisted in your lies against Allah�s revelation and religion as evident from this post and your other posts here. You should however note that Allah guides not the liars, hypocrites & disbelievers. So, if you fear Allah and His punishment then stop your great evil of spreading disbelief and lies. You should repent and beg Allah to forgive you.

yeah whatever

Allah konws best. May Allah guide us to His Straight Way.

indeed

Sarkeranwar View Drop Down

Newbie

Joined: 27 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 37

Posted: 17 August 2005 at 4:19am

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

Peace and blessings of Allah be upon Prophet Muhammad, his family, his companions & those who follow the guidance

This post is addressed to Noah

There are three types of people who may reject the authentic Sunnah/Ahadith of our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). These people are either:

1. Hypocrites 2. Disbelievers 3. Heretics

Noah said: As this concerns me, i will answer itl, and hope that reason will take a go at it aswell. Could you point out where in the Quran it says that people who disbelief telltales nomatter whom they are ascribed to are heretics? just a single clear verse will do.

Your question is unclear to me. Please construct the question properly with words separated from each other where applicable.

1. If you consider yourself a muslim, you must admit that you would need to perform Iq�mat-as-Sal�t 5 times daily.

Noah said: Here is an assumption. You assume that there are 5 daily prayers, based upon hadith. I do not accept hadith as relegious guidence, in the same way i dont accept the catholic encyclopedia, or saxo germanico as relegious guidence, but rather historicals writs with some truths to be found in them. The QURAN only outlines 3 daily prayers. These can be found in 11:115, 17:79 ie.

You have quoted Verses 11:115 & 17:79 to support your lies in regard to the number of daily obligatory prayers. Here are the interpreted meanings of those two Verses:

11:115. And be patient; verily, All�h loses not the reward of the good-doers.

Where the above Verses tell you to pray 3 times daily?

a. how do you determine the "fixed time" of these salat?

Noah said: By reading Quran. verses like 11:115

b. how do you know how many unit you have to perform in each salat?

Noah said: If there was any importance to this, it would be stated in The Quran. What however IS stated is how important salat is. Thus, by using our God given heads, we can figure out that we should do it at the prescribed times, the number of repetitions are unimportant.

Where did Allah tell you that if there was any important in regard to the number of units He would have stated it in the Holy Quran? Bring your evidence.

c. how do you know what to recite in each unit?

Noah said: As The Quran outlines numerous reasons for salat, and situations where it is fitting. The uttering should be what is actually on your mind, and what ever help you need from our Rabb. The prayer should however end with the words "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.� And glorify Him greatly." 17:110-111

Where does Allah tell you that �the uttering should be what is actually on your mind�? Did He reveal to you a separate Book or did He give you Al-Hikmah? Do not lie against Allah and His religion!

Did not Allah inform us in the following Verse that He had perfected His Religion during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him)?

5:3. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Isl�m as your religion.

This statement of the Most Glorious means that everything that a muslim needs in regard to his living by Islam has been perfected during the time of Prophet Muhammd (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him). It does not mean that you can utter whatever trashes you have accumulated in your heart in regard to the practices of Islam!

d. what do you say when you bow & prostrate?

Noah said: when i prostrate at the beginning of prayer i say "i submit myself to the Lord or the worlds" like Abraham said it. And when i prostrate to finnish prayer, i utter "praise be to Allah who etc..."

Where did Allah ask you to say as such in your bowing & prostration during salat prayer? Bring evidence if you are truthful!

e. whatever manner you follow in these prayers - who taught you such manner?

Noah said: Al'Quran. Thus God and his messenger taught me.

Where is in the Al-Quran Allah detailed the manner of the prescribed prayers? Bring evidence!

I see now you are referring to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as the one beside Allah who taught you the manner of prayers! Al-Quran does not tell you the detailed manner of prayers. Then how do you claim that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also taught you the manner of prayer since you do not believe in Sunnah & Ahadith?

2. As a muslim, you must give Zak�t. How do you determine the percentage of Zak�t to be given?

Noah said: I think you are confusing Zakaat & Sadaqa. As for sadaqa it is whatever we have in access. Or in other words ,we should freely give out from what we ourself do not need.

[al-Baqarah 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to (sadaqa) charity : say, "The excess." The GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,

You can think whatever nonsense you want to think! My question was very clear as I have only asked you about Zakat but not Sadaqa. Now, because you cannot answer straight you are resorting to confuse the issue!

Moreover, you are translating Verse 2:219 wrongly to suit your line of thinking! There is no mention of either Sadaqa or Zakat in that Verse. Here is the transliteration of Verse 2:219.

2:219. Yas-aloonaka AAani alkhamri waalmaysiri qul feehima ithmun kabeerun wamanafiAAu lilnnasi wa-ithmuhuma akbaru min nafAAihima wayas-aloonaka matha yunfiqoona quli alAAafwa kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati laAAallakum tatafakkaroona.

Here is one of the much used translations of Verse 2:219 (Hilali & Muhshin Khan). Meaning of Yusuf Ali, Pickthall & Shakir Translations is the same as Hilali & Muhshin Khan.

2:219. They ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: "That which is beyond your needs." Thus All�h makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought."

How this Verse relate to Zakat or Sadaqa? By Allah's Mercy, I am familiar with your type of people who distort meaning of the Quran to justify their lies. Anyway, the �Zakat� that I asked you about has been mentioned in many Verses of the Holy Quran. Here are two of them:

2:277. Truly those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5:55. Verily, your Wali (Protector or Helper) is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, - those who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer).

Now, tell me how do you determine the amount of Zakat to be paid (keep in mind that Islam has been perfected).

3. How do you perform the rituals of Hajj?

Noah said: what rituals? where i Quran are there any mention of any such rituals? the purpose of hajj is clearly outlined in Quran. It is to gather ALL mankind, in peacefull debate, and to call Gods name over the livestock. So the question is rather WHY do you perform rituals at hajj?

What I meant by the rituals is the manner of performing the Hajj. I am not talking here about the purpose of Hajj. I am talking about how you perform Hajj. So do not mix up! Who taught you as to what to do during the Hajj? Surely, there are many rituals which have been described in the Holy Quran (find the Verses by yourself) and many rituals have not been detailed in the Holy Quran. For example, it is a command to do Tawaf during the Hajj. But Quran does not tell us how many times the Tawaf is necessary. Tell me how many times you will do the Tawaf.

Judging from your response, I find you are a much more ignorant individual then what I thought about you initially! Where in the Holy Quran Allah tells you that mankind to gather there in "peaceful debate"? Bring eveidence!

Your statement �So the question is rather WHY do you perform rituals at hajj� is a proof that you have no idea about what the Holy Quran says in regard to performing Hajj!

By the way, what do you understand by the word Manasik?

4. We learn from the Holy Quran that Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) was a human being and was not killed in the cross and Allah raised him to Himself.

Noah said: actually that is not what we learn at all. we learn that ISA was a teacher from his youth to he became old of age, and that what happened at the cross what merely an illusion. You are mixing up Gods words, with bukharis.

"And he speaks to the people from the cradle, and in old age, and is from among the upright."3:47

God said: "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age......5:111

First of all you have lied against Allah and His Book by saying that �actually that is not what we learn at all� & �you are mixing up Gods words with Bukharis�. The following Verses are adequate to refute your lies:

4:157. And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]:

4:158. But All�h raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And All�h is Ever AllPowerful, AllWise.

Secondly, you have not only quoted the references of the Verses wrongly (should be 3:46 & 5:110) but also you have resorted to lies in the translation of the Verses. Lets look at the correct meanings of Verses 3:46 & 5:110:

3:46. "He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous."

5:110. (Remember) when All�h will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with R�hulQudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity;�

Now lets look at some words in Verse 3:110. In your translation you have translated the words �biroohi alqudusi� as the �Holy Spirit�! What a liar!! Where on earth you found the meanings of these words as such?

We also know from the Holy Quran that every living being must die on earth and will be resurrected from there by Allah on the Day of Resurrection. So, in order to die on earth and be resurrected, Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) must descend on earth.

Noah said: he died here (unless you will argue that he was taken after he was old of age), no worries. no confusion at all.

You are again lying! Show evidence from the Holy Quran that Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) died here!

We learn from the authentic Ahadith that Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) will descend on earth near the end of the time ( after Dajjal and before the Gog and Magog people are let loose!).

Noah said: Thats odd, because authentic AYAT says that Mohammad does not know the future, and yet other authentic ayat says very clearly that ISA was a teacher from his youth to his old age.

Surely, it would be odd for the ignorant people like you! If you had the understanding of the Holy Quran you would have known that the Messengers whom Allah has chosen are given the information of the unseen as much as He likes! Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

72:26. "(He Alone) the All-Knower of the Gha'ib (unseen), and He reveals to none His Gha'ib (unseen)."

72:27. Except to a Messenger (from mankind) whom He has chosen (He informs him of unseen as much as He likes), and then He makes a band of watching guards (angels) to march before him and behind him.

72:28. [He (All�h) protects them (the Messengers)], till He sees that they (the Messengers) have conveyed the Messages of their Lord (All�h). And He (All�h) surrounds all that which is with them, and He (All�h) keeps count of all things (i.e. He knows the exact number of everything).

Apart from the above Verses, we learn from the following Verse that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had the knowledge of unseen as much as Allah liked him to have it. Otherwise, the statement �he (Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) withholds not a knowledge of the unseen� will have no meaning. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

81:24. And he (Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) withholds not a knowledge of the unseen.

Which Ayat says that Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) was a teacher from his youth to old age? Bring evidence if you are truthful!

Now, considering the above rules of the Holy Quran in regard to death and resurrection! Would you then reject Ahadith about the decend of Prophet Isa (peace be upon him)? If you reject, how would you then reconcile Verses from the Holy Quran in regard to the raising of Prophet Isa to Allah Himself and his death & resurrection before the Final Day?

Noah said: there arent any confusion. But youre welcome to post ayat backing up your claim, and then we can take it from there.

Of course there are no confusions in Islam. It is only people like you who are confused! Well, you have my response above where I have quoted the relevant Verses!

Insha Allah, I will show your ignorance and foolishness concerning the rejection of Sunnah/Ahadith after I read your response.

Noah said: Feel free to, im always interrested in learning more

I have proven that you are a heretic who wrongly translates the Holy Quran. I have also proven your disbelief and hypocrisy. You disbelieved in Allah�s revelation in many of your statements as I have proved with appropriate Verses. Your hypocrisy has been exposed. You say you believe but in reality you do not believe!

Listen Noah, I know you are a big liar and you have persisted in your lies against Allah�s revelation and religion as evident from this post and your other posts here. You should however note that Allah guides not the liars, hypocrites & disbelievers. So, if you fear Allah and His punishment then stop your great evil of spreading disbelief and lies. You should repent and beg Allah to forgive you.

Allah konws best. May Allah guide us to His Straight Way.

open

Newbie

Joined: 11 August 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7

Posted: 11 August 2005 at 11:07am

Maybe you are unable to string more than one sentence together? If you can you may realise that the following two sentences I included, cover your query with regards to that which is corrupt.